Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.
For a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program eleven years ago because it's what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That's why we use the Amherst writing method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology. I wish everyone learned in great school. You can read more about the Amherst method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, writing alone and with others. But the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Number two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And number three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed. In our classes. Everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded, positive feedback. By that I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases or concepts that really resonated for us since we can't violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there. These one on one or three people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our and read our students words as they were published on our blog, the Intuitive Voice, with the links below.
If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it. Imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It's pretty life changing, and there's a lot more I could say about it, but I'll let these young writers speak for themselves.
On behalf of all the writers at the Intuitive writing project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices, for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people today. I am so honored and excited to be interviewing our very own Kelly Harley, who has been writing with us for several years and is an exceptional writer. I wanted to start by introducing Kelly. Kelly, if you would share your pronouns, your age, about how long you've been writing with us, where you're currently at school. And then the big question at the end is if you could share a little anecdote about your kind of your first memory of loving to write.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Okay.
Hi, everyone. My pronouns are she, her. I'm almost 19 years old in a few days. I'm currently a student at Northeastern University in Boston, and I've been writing with the intuitive writing project for almost four years now. And thinking about an anecdote of the first time I remember enjoying writing was probably in 7th grade. We had an assignment to write, like, a short fictional piece of something, and I wrote it about a character that had the same anxiety disorder that I had.
So it was kind of like a cathartic, therapeutic trauma dump on the page.
And reading it back now, I think I still have it. It's like, it's really not good. But I remember the first time that I found something in writing that I didn't find anywhere else and thinking like, oh, yeah. Like, this is something that I definitely want to pursue more.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: That's so interesting. That's so young.
Looking back on it now, to have had this, like, truly self revelatory non fiction writing piece, that's amazing. I bet most kids were writing about, like, tassels and, like, just silly stuff, and you went deep, which this is consistent with you as a writer. You are a deep thinker. I love that that happened in 7th grade. Did you get any kind of positive feedback from your teacher from that?
[00:05:10] Speaker B: I honestly forget. I do remember that we had to, like, pass it around to, like, small groups in class.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: I was like, wait a minute.
Not part of the program.
And I think I did, like, I think I did pass it around. And the other kids must have just been like, what the heck is this?
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Like, girl, oh, I'm laughing, but I'm actually, like, inwardly cringing for you because I've had so many.
So if you think you're writing something, just, you get to, like, in our class, speak your truth. But it's actually in that situation that was not a safe space.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
And then I think I rewrote that story, like, from a different. It's like, same theme the next year in 8th grade. And then again, we had to, like, it would be, like, passed around to, like.
And I asked my teacher, I'm like, can I not do this? And she was like, okay, so I just didn't pass my story around.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Good for you. Standing up, being an advocate for your story and not. Yeah, because it's. That's a very personal story that is not for mass consumption. That's great.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: What's funny is that Allie Kirk, who is also in the intuitive writing project, who actually got me into the intuitive writing project, she was in that class, and she was, like, my only friend in that class, and she was the only person that I let read that.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Aw.
It's totally full circle. You were having an intuitive writing project moment before you even knew it.
Actually, technically, we existed at that point, but we just didn't know each other. That's so lovely.
Well, thank you for sharing that. We're going to come back to that theme of writing really personal stuff and sharing it and how scary and vulnerable it is, because to your point, it would feel as a 7th grader and at any age, it feels so good, so cathartic to actually speak your truth and put it on paper, organize your thoughts on paper. In fact, there's all this science to say that when we write about traumatic things on paper, it actually shifts where the trauma is located in the brain. So before you write about it, the trauma is in the back part of your brain, where it's just like this overwhelming emotion. And then the process of writing about it, it actually, they've tracked that it moves to the frontal lobe, where it sort of reduces the intensity a little bit because you kind of like, it's that expression. You've literally wrapped your head around it, and so then you can handle it. It's very powerful, what you're, what you experienced, but it also makes it very scary and vulnerable to share your writing. So, yeah, we'll come back to that. I'm glad that that didn't dissuade you from writing authentic truths.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: So I just want to share with the audience that there's a lot of Kaley's powerful, deep, wise, insightful, amazing writing on our blog. Intuitive voice. You can find it all there.
In fact, it was really hard to pick a piece to talk about today, to just pick one piece. But it is such a beautiful, incredible piece. It is. I think everyone of every age are going to relate to the theme of this because it's about really being the creators of our own reality and choosing how to feel. So I'll say no more about it. I'll let you read, if you would read, Kelly, your piece, keeper of joy.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
It's not being in charge of my life that scares me. What scares me is that being the keeper of my fate means I'm the keeper of my joy, too.
Pain is easy to hold. It's not easy to carry, but it fits in my hands just so like a clay cast. And when something is easy to hold, we tend to take it with us, reluctant to detach from it. I've held it for so long, I'm used to seeing my hands this way. I'm used to the weight. But joy. Joy is untamable and light and so warm that it's startling. You cannot hold joyous. It isn't something with a form, but it is nice to carry. It's not heavy or uncomfortable. But how do you carry something you can't hold? How do you control the uncontrollable you feel? Joy? I argue that we feel it more than pain, and we just don't know. Because joy isn't selfish. Joy doesn't appear with a label on a uniform. It just overcomes you and smiles as you smile, it presses a palm to your chest ever so gently. And suddenly you feel more connected to the idea of living than you thought was possible.
But you aren't thinking of joy when it comes, because Joy reminds you how to feel before you think. Joy doesn't need you to know its name. It just needs you to know its presence.
But pain is selfish, and you know when it's there, you know its name. It doesn't take much to find the pain and keep it, but it's something else entirely to capture the joy and convince it to stay.
So when you tell me my fate is only mine, I'm not thinking of fate. Because even though joy isn't selfish, it won't stay unless you want it to. Even though Joy isn't selfish, it knows that you need to pull your weight.
Joy won't last unless you create it. Unless you will it. I guess joy is only as untamable as you. And of course, you can't hold it when your hands are caked in clay. Even if you caught it, would you choose to let it stay?
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Kelly, that is so beautiful. I mean, anything you write, anything anyone writes, can be read. But there's such a special magic when you hear the author's voice reading it. You have such a beautiful voice, and you read that so beautifully. It made me cry a little bit. It's so good.
This is such a deep piece, as all your pieces are. But I want to talk about how the writer is really. It's an existential piece. The writer is talking about how we can choose our emotions and how you do have to exert a little bit of effort. And sometimes it's an interesting idea, and it's so true. Sometimes the most positive emotions, the emotions we all want to feel, are a little harder to hold than the things that we actually don't want to feel, which are weirdly easy. Sometimes we get and I feel like this is part of our larger culture in human western history has just been entrenched in suffering for so long. So I think this is connected to, like, this is a very universal human problem that you have observed so precisely and beautifully and eloquently. Okay, so some lines that just jumped out to me, the idea that what scares me is being the keeper of my fate means I am also the keeper of my joy. That idea that we have ultimate creative power over our lives, which sounds like, objectively, we should all, oh, my God, we have ultimate creative power. But also that's like, oh, that means it's on me and you can't. The way that writer wrote, pain is easy to hold. So relatable. It's not easy to carry, but it fits in my hand just so like a clay cast. That is an incredible line, also because of that whole mythological idea that God created man out of clay. So it's like, almost like the human.
It's almost like humans are cursed on some level from a religious perspective, to carry pain. And, of course, that circles back at the end. I love that you brought the clay back where the second to last line the writer said, and of course, you can't hold it when your hands are caked with clay. That is a really deep metaphor going on there. But then how the writer said, when something is easy to hold, we tend to take it with us, reluctant to detach from it. I've held it for so long, I'm used to seeing my hands this way. I'm used to the weight that is so deep.
I remember when you first read this in class, I was just, like, speechless because it's something we. Nobody talks about this, that actually, sadness, suffering, struggle, pain, all the things that have been part of the human experience for thousands of years are weirdly more comfortable.
And it feels like, well, if you're sad, you can't. You have nothing to lose because you're already at the bottom. Whereas if you have joy, then you can lose it. Then you have something to lose. I'm not actually sure why it is this way, but it is this way, and you have expressed it perfectly. And then we switch. The writer pivots to talking about joy. Oh, my God, I love this description. Description. Joy is untamable and light and so warm that it's startling. God, I love the line about, it just overcomes you and smiles as you smile. It presses a palm to your chest ever so gently. And suddenly you feel more connected to the idea of living than you thought was possible.
There's interesting. This is the mention of qualm again, and hands, of course, because the writer's talking about holding it. And it's an interesting idea. Just that we. Okay, so that we hold things in our hands is sort of a metaphor for our creative power. But then holding it in our hands also conveys this idea of weight or lightness, which you have played with beautifully. I'm thinking about synesthesia, where you compare senses. Sadness or joy is expressed in almost with a texture or a weight to it, something tangible, which we don't usually.
This is the gift of the writer, that the writer takes emotions and makes them tangible.
I love the line you feel joy. It doesn't appear with a label on a uniform. It just overcomes you. Like, it's just this, almost like a. It washes over you. Whereas pain. And then we go back to comparing. Joy and pain is such a fascinating idea. Pain, you know, when it's there, you know its name, you know it's pain you're carrying, but it's. There's a selfishness to it because you do have to choose it. And it's funny, it's almost like pain sort of disconnects you from the universe or from life, and joy connects you like that. That line, Joy makes you feel more connected to living, and pain sort of makes you feel separate from it. And then just the very last paragraph. So powerful, I can't even. So I would just love for you to just read the last paragraph one more time.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Okay.
Because even though Joy isn't selfish, it won't stay unless you want it to. Even though Joy isn't selfish, it knows that you need to pull your weight. Joy won't last unless you create it, unless you will it. I guess Joy is only as untamable as you. And of course, you can't hold it when your hands are caked in clay. Even if you caught it, would you choose to let it stay?
[00:17:16] Speaker A: So incredible, that line. Joy won't last unless you create it, unless you will it. And Will is such an interesting idea, like the idea that we do have to exert our personal will if we want to have the life that we dream of. And I also love joy is only as tamable as you, which gets to like the beauty of the human spirit when it's let to be what it is. It's this beautiful, wild creature. And of course, that's where the joy lies, is in our untameability.
Oh, it's so awesome. So I know. I want to ask you about the creative process of writing. So let's just talk about this piece in particular. When you started it, did you have any clue that this is where you were going? Did it just sort of happen unexpectedly, or were you very clear this is, like, you knew this is what you wanted to write about?
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Hmm.
I feel like, for a lot of my pieces, it's either the first line that, like, pops into my head that gets me going, or it's just, like, a general idea, and I just kind of start and then see where it goes. I don't think I ever really have, like, an end goal unless it's the last line. Like, I feel like my brain very much works in, like, the one in, like, the lines where I feel, like, capture what, like, I'm trying to say, but still need more to, like, kind of fill it in and, like, provide context. So, like, sometimes I'll be writing, and then my brain will be, like, this line, and I'll have to, like, write it somewhere else, because it's, like, I don't want it there yet, but, like, I want it. So it's like, my brain will definitely, like, writing in a few different places at once all the time. But, yeah.
Yeah, I feel like, for this one, I can't remember if it was the first line. I think it might have been the first thing that was, like, the idea that I wanted, and then the rest just kind of came from that.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: But, yeah, that's incredible. I mean, what I'm hearing when you're describing that is that you hear words that sentences sort of, like, pop into your head, like. Like. I mean, this is what poets. I hear poets talk about this all the time, that they just hear a line and they have to. They got to write that line down. And what you're saying, it may be like a couple. You're not even ready for that line yet, but you already know that line. You're going in that direction. Toward that line.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: That's so awesome. By the way, I have to ask if you. Did you ever get to watch Dickinson? About Emily Dickinson, the new.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Oh, I haven't. I keep meaning to. And then.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Okay, now you definitely have to watch it, because the fact that what you just told me is sort of how they. And I recommend this to everyone, it is definitely pg 13, but best. Best selling of a young female writer's experience as a writer, it's a modern version of her, and what they have on them with the graphics on the show is she'll be walking along in a line, will just pop in her head, and they show it. It's, like, inked on paper that looks like the words are, like fire. It's very cool. But you just get to see what. What most people don't get to see, Kelly, when you're having a brilliant epiphany about a line, it's invisible. Nobody knows it's happening. You know it's happening, and then if you get down, then the world will eventually know. But it's like this magic that happens that most people don't understand it. I think you'll like Emily Dickinson. Yeah.
Okay. So, that leads to the next question, and that is, what do you do? Maybe you've gotten some great lines. You feel like, pretty sure, but you get to a certain point in the story where you just get stuck. Like, maybe there's a gap between where you are and that line you want to get to. How do you work through that?
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah, so, in class, it's a little different because I don't have the time. Just kind of, like, sit with it and, like, give it time, which is normally what I do, because most of the time, I find that if I try to just, like, sit there and force it, my brain just gets so, like, clouded, and it's, like, too much pressure that I'm putting on myself. So I have to, like, typically leave it for a little bit.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: And by a little bit, you mean like, a couple hours? Days?
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah, usually, like, a couple hours or, like, a few days or really? Until I feel maybe until, like, another line pops in my head or until I feel like I finally, like, have, like, toyed with that idea enough to where I feel like I know where I want it to go.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: That's interesting. That's interesting. I didn't even think. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't even think about that. That is sort of an unnatural constraint to have to write in a class, even though it's, like, in some way, like, you guys usually would write for an hour, which is a nice chunk of time, but it doesn't allow you to stop and walk away and come back. You have to just keep going. So that. That's hard.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah. But funnily enough, it's never been, like, too much of a problem in class as, like, getting stuck. I don't know why. Because outside of class, I have, like, plenty of those moments where maybe it's just because I'm, like, working on, like, longer pieces that supposed to be more connected, and I'm trying to figure out how I want to connect all these different ideas that I have that I, like, individually, but I don't know how to pull them together. But in class, it's actually never really been that much of an issue. There are definitely times where I get stuck, but I feel like I just kind of have to write through it in those circumstances, which is kind of a good practice, is to both practice stepping away from it and giving yourself time to mull it over. And then also just, like, just put pen in the paper and just keep going.
Because you can always, like, cross stuff out and be like, I don't want to say that. Because eventually, like, eventually you'll find your transition or you'll find your, like, thing. It doesn't have to be right away. You don't have to, like, say everything that you write in class, of course, like, no one's going to know any different if you, like, say a line that was on the page at one point, no longer there.
So, yeah, I feel like that's really good advice.
[00:23:44] Speaker A: Sorry.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: No, no, I was done.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good advice. Because I think because of the particular culture we live in and this whole ridiculous idea of perfection, whatever that means, most people, it's actually called perfection paralysis. And that what it is, is that we're so afraid to do anything that's not perfect. We don't even write the line. So I like that you're saying, just write something. And you might. If you just keep writing, you're going to stumble on something.
It's just another approach. Either you can walk away from it, or you just keep going until you stumble on the better thing, and then you could scratch out the parts you don't like and nobody has to see them. And if you're really good at scratching things out, which I've definitely developed a specific way of scratching that I feel like you cannot even read through my scratches, then no one will know.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: I feel like I've developed that, too.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a thing, because when you realize, like, the thing that you wrote, you don't like it. You really don't want anyone to read it, but nobody has to read it. And of course, no one has to ever even hear you read it out loud or on paper. Anything you write can stay with you forever. In fact, the. The ultimate thing, they always talk about this, like, if you have something you're really frustrated about, something you need to get off your chest, but you don't want anyone to know, you can write it on a piece of paper and then go, literally burn it in the sink so no one will see it, and it's just the cathartic experience. But I think there's a lot to be said also with the letting people hear parts of it. Which brings me to the big, big question. And this is the number one fear of all people, including myself, share my writing in your class. But I share writing in the women's classes, and I feel exactly the same every single time I do it. That fear of exposing and sharing your writing that is so personal and so vulnerable and you honestly don't know immediately because it's right after you've written, you don't have time to think about it. Right after you've written, we ask you to share your writing so you don't know in our heads, I think we all think. We all think our writing is not worthy of sharing. It's very normal. So I wanted to ask you to talk about your experience maybe, like, over time, when you first.
The first year you wrote with us, and then now and then, like, how do you deal with that anxiety of sharing your words?
[00:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So, for me, it's not so much the vulnerability part. I feel like I have a pretty healthy, if not maybe over healthy, relationship with vulnerability or, like, sharing things that are personal to me. And maybe that just comes from, like, going to therapy from such a young age for anxiety and things like that.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: I think that's great, by the way, I love that you share.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, that's literally an example of telling me, yeah, no, that's great. So, yeah, for me, it's not necessarily like, I mean, there are some pieces where I'm like, okay, yeah. Like, this is not. This is something I typically keep to myself, but I feel like the vulnerability part is the easier part for me to overcome.
The harder part for me is definitely, like, the perfectionism piece because I'm totally a perfectionist. And I'm always, like, rating the piece back. And I'm like, is that line, like, really good? Is that, like, I'm thinking more about, I guess, like, the words themselves and, like, how they sound and how they fit together? And I'm like, is this something I'm actually proud of? Like, is this, like, is it good? Is this objectively good? Like, if I read this in a novel or something, would I be like, damn. Or would I be like.
I feel like that's always the hardest part for me. Like, right before I go to read, I'm always like, what if this sucks? Like, what if this is just terrible and I don't know it because it's my voice and I'm like, you know, I'm used to my voice, but, like, I don't know. So that that's definitely something that I still have to fight a lot of the time. Gotten easier the more years that I've been, like, writing and sharing in that space. And I think that that was the intuitive writing project was definitely really good for me as a writer and as a person in that sense of, like, forcing me to, like, share my voice with other people and, like, get used to the fact that, like, if I do want to be an authorization, like, I'm gonna have to start being okay with other people reading what I'm reading, what I write.
So, yeah, it's definitely gotten easier. And I think part of what's helped with that is, well, a few things is, like, one, you're not alone. Like, every other person in that room doesn't have to share, but most of the time, we all share what we write.
Everyone else is in the same boat. And when I'm listening to what they're saying, I'm not going like, oh, this is awful. I'm, like, I'm listening to it, and I'm like, I'm hearing all the beautiful parts about it, and I'm taking away all the things that are meaningful to me, and I'm trying to focus on how to lift that person up and let them know how amazing what they're saying is. So I'm not sitting there and being like, oh, that word was awful, or that line could have been better or something that never once even crosses my mind. So I have to remind myself of that and be like, come on. Like, this is. They're not. Like, they're not here to judge you at all. They're here to listen to what you have to say and, like, show you that they care and that they hear you and things like that. So that's definitely helped. And realizing also, like, every word doesn't have to be perfect. Like, every sentence doesn't have to be like, that sentence. And if it was, that would be kind of tiring if you're just hearing a bunch of, like, one liners and you kind of be like, okay, like this. These are good. Oh, my God. Can we have something else here? So, like, if you're reading a book, like, not. You're not amazed by every line, but. But every word still means something, so it's kind of letting go of that whole, like, perfectionism part of, like, everything having to be absolutely perfect in the way that it's ideally you want it to be, because the words are going to come out, how they're going to come out, and it's still going to be just fine.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Oh, that is brilliant. I love how you. Everything that you just said there. First of all, the idea that if everyone was perfect, it would be boring. And we talk about that with, like, character development. If a character is perfect, boring. Nobody wants a perfect character, which is so ironic that society tells us to be perfect because that's the most boring thing. But I most loved what you said about when you're listening. It is the Amherst writing method, of course, the idea that you're listening for what is beautiful in everybody's writing. And I love how you said you want to, like, lift everyone up. And so remembering that, that means everybody else is also listening for what's beautiful. And so it's the polar opposite, I feel, of both school and work. Like most things in life are. Everybody's looking out for the thing you did wrong. So, of course we're anxious. I mean, honestly, it's a miracle we're not even more anxious than we are.
Society is so brutal.
But, God, just. And I think it does take, like you were saying, it takes a while to get to that place of feeling like, oh, it's okay here. Because we're. It's like everything in life trains you to anticipate criticism.
And so, yes, it's very scary and nerve wracking to share, but once you can just be like, oh, people are here just to lift me up and, like, love my writing, and it doesn't.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Have to be perfect. Yeah. And it's always cool hearing how people, like, view your stuff, because sometimes someone will say something, it's like, oh, like, the connection between that and that. I'm like, I didn't think that.
Didn't know that was even nice. So, like, that's cool on me that I did that, because then people will, like, say something of how they relate to it or something like that. And it's both validating. And it's also cool to know that people get something out of what you have to say, too.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that you said that. And that is true. I mean, the reason this is called intuitive writing is because we're not really. It's just pouring out of us intuitively. And, of course, your intuition is very advanced, so you're actually doing a lot of deep thematic things, but you're not necessarily thinking about them when you're writing. And so I think you're absolutely right. Other people can hear. It's my experience, too. Other people pick up on themes and, like, cool metaphors that I was not conscious of. My unconscious was probably clocking it.
I think that feedback piece is essential because it also shows that you're not alone, that other people feel like you feel. We always think that what we experience, like, we're like, I think I've said this before, we all feel uniquely weird. And then you read your writing, and it's like, oh, no, we're all weird in the same way.
Either that or none of us are weird. We're just all equally awesome.
That's the gift of writing, is having other people will hear it and validate it. Appreciate it.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:17] Speaker A: Oh, my God, Kelly, you are so brilliant. Every week is amazing. And I just want to honor you for having the courage, because, by the way, the definition of courage is being afraid and doing it anyway. So if you weren't afraid, it wouldn't be as significant. So the fact that you do feel anxious, like we all do, and you do it anyway, and you do get stuck sometimes, and you keep writing, to me, that is the definition of courage. So thank you so much for talking about this process with us, and hopefully it will inspire lots of other young people to keep writing as well. Yeah.
Yeah. So thank you for your time.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Thank you.
