Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing based empowerment program for young people. My name is Elizabeth Pearlman and I creative this organization because it was what I wanted and needed when I was young, a safe, supportive space to speak my truth and have it heard.
In all our programs, we use something called the Amherst Writing Method, which you can read about on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and With Others. But the basic principles and the ones that inform all our instruction are, number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is positively supported and affirmed.
On behalf of all the young writers at the Intuitive Writing Project, we thank you for listening. May you always speak your truth and know that it matters.
[00:01:24] Elizabeth: Today I am so happy and honored to be talking with our newest teacher for young men, our young men's program, Jake Sawyer is here. Jake is going to be reading an incredible piece of writing which I'm excited for y'all to hear. And we're gonna just be talking about the magic and the power of writing. Jake, if you would introduce, when you introduce yourself, tell us your pronouns and also if you could give us a little anecdote, a memory of your first experience with writing being fun slash/magical.
[00:02:02] Jake: Absolutely. Well, I'm very happy to be here. Excited to chat with you today. My name is Jake Sawyer. My pronouns are he, him, and I think my, my first memory of writing really becoming a strong and, and powerful part of my life goes back to sixth grade and we were reading the Crucible and I, I was really interested in all of these concepts of witchcraft and you know, the Salem witch trials. And so I was writing a paper on the Salem Witch trials with, with my, my teacher who I've since reconnected with actually. He's a great guy, very inspirational, very, you know, loose and, and free flowing and encouraging and, and I, I was working on this paper and realized that the, the Putnam name is something that's very closely tied to a lot of the things that happened during the Salem Witch trials, both good and bad, and found out that that's actually a part of my lineage. My, my sister's middle name is Putnam. The Putnam family is, you know, I'm a direct descendant of, of some of the, the folks that were strongly involved in the witch trials in Salem. So I think that that moment, I remember having that aha, holy cow moment, and thinking, oh, oh, my gosh, this is. I have to dig deeper. I have such a personal connection to the things we're talking that I'm writing about. And realizing that personal connection to the thing that I was working on, the writing that I was doing, kind of created this idea that, you know, if I'm, if I'm able to get personally invested in the creative process, regardless of the whole academic side of things, there is much more power that can come out of that. And from, from there, that kind of transpired into finding things to write about that were a little bit more personal to me. And, you know, that kind of permeated through my entire academic career and spurred me to start a journal. So I've been journaling since I was about 16, give or take. You know, little on and off through those years, but, you know, it's. Writing in general has been something that's a part of my life and a part of my being for a very long time. And who'd have thunk that it would have started with some of the, the crazy Putnams during the Salem witch trials?
[00:04:44] Elizabeth: Ok so that’s amazing. This is going to need be a separate podcast where we just talk about that because that's a really interesting topic. But was your. The Putnam family, they came over. They were living in New England then?
[00:04:57] Jake: They, they were. So family lineage goes back to England and Scotland, Ireland, all, all that. But the, the Puritan Society is where some of the Putnams were hanging out. And, you know, very amazing. But the Putnams now are about as opposite of that as you could possibly get. Dancing on tables at parties and, you know, loud and crazy and, you know.
[00:05:28] Elizabeth: And then you getting to be a writer. Oh my gosh, you've got so much material. Just with that, I wanted to ask you about your journaling because I also journaled in high, especially in high school. That like, saved my life in high school. What kind of notebook did you have? Did you have like a. Just like a three ring, you know, spiral notebook or do you have anything fancy or what did you write it?
[00:05:51] Jake: So I had various different leather bound notebooks that had been gifted to me over the years and, you know, when I was younger and kind of, you know, smirking at the whole idea of, you know, why do I need this thing? I have probably 10 different journals that I started and wrote in for two or three weeks every day and, and then just completely stopped. So there's still a lot of blank pages to be filled in. Some of those, which, you know, is opportunistic. I guess, but it was. Yeah, I think I, I started and stopped a lot of different times when I was younger. And over the years I've become much more consistent with it. I probably write five or six times a week and it's gone from just journaling to I, I named my journal as I. I just call it Meditations. And then the year that I'm writing. Writing. So Meditations, I think started in 2020, 2021, maybe just, you know, putting a little bit of intention behind what I was writing and, you know, the, the crazy thoughts that were, you know, coming up in my mind. I wanted to tackle those from the perspective of meditation. And looking at things with a meditative perspective, I think is a, A quick way to open the mind before you even, you know, put pen to paper.
[00:07:23] Elizabeth: I love that. Well, and there are so many studies that journaling, the kind of writing you do in a journal, expressive writing, intuitive writing, is inherently meditative because it's about just being really present and just, you know, drawing forth what comes through and not thinking so much. People think because of English class. In English class, you do have to think about what you're writing. But this kind of writing, the writing that you about to read, this sort of stream of conscious comes out of your soul writing. It's absolutely meditative. It's like afterwards you feel like refreshed, like you've been meditating. Sorry, go ahead.
[00:08:02] Jake: I. I couldn't agree more. I think, I mean, just taking what's in your brain and creating a smattering of logic and I mean, well, illogical thoughts as well and just getting a. Getting a chance to look at that and dissect your own mind through that lens of, of meditation. I mean, just stream of consciousness, however you want to slice it, is a really unique and kind of cool way to, you know, become more introspective and understand the, the inner workings of your own mind and kind of be with the things that you're thinking and allow them to be and investigate what, what those thoughts mean and where they come from and whether or not you actually agree with yourself sometimes.
[00:08:47] Elizabeth: True, true, Absolutely. When this is. Of course, we're going to talk about this more later on, but this is what happens in our classes. Some people write, even if you write a fictional story, there is a stream of consciousness, intuitive aspect to it, but mostly what comes out is just sort of. It's very introspective. And then the beauty, the difference between writing when you're by yourself, which is inherently healing. And I wish everyone in the world had the joy of writing in a journal because it helps so much. But then when you write something that just sort of pours out of you and share it and have people listen to you, really listen to and mirror back what they thought was powerful, then it's like a whole other level.
[00:09:30] Jake: Oh, very much so. Yeah. I'm really excited to have the chance and the opportunity to bring what. What knowledge I have to some of these boys and young men to encourage them to find that introspective state and, you know, give themselves a chance to kind of reflect on who they are and, you know, create some really cool formative moments and. And memories that can exist permanently in the world that they can carry with them for.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: Right, yeah. Because once it's written, it becomes. It has a solidity and a realness versus when it's just floating in your head. Well, and partly because it's on paper. When you write on paper. Oh and the best thing I am so excited for, by the way, anyone who is interested in writing with Jake, just go to our website and you'll see him under our boys program. And please reach out to us if you want to sign up for one of his classes because as you can see already, he's amazing and you're going to about to hear his incredible writing. So wise, so profound. Would you read this piece? You wrote this piece? When was this first written? Was this right after the election? Like a week after the election? I think.
[00:10:48] Jake: I think this was. It was right around that time. It was a few days following the election. And, you know, I was thinking about a lot of things and a lot about the people that I love and, you know, the love that I have for myself, which I think is equally as important and kind of grappling with, you know, these. These ideas that, you know, I. I feel like I need to take action this time around versus sit back and watch things unfold, which, you know, historically has, despite it being pretty interesting, chaotic. Reality TV adjacent situation. I wanted to move the needle in. In the direction that I feel confidently. Is the. The right one.
[00:11:47] Elizabeth: I love that. Well, I will let you take it from here if you would read this piece. And we're going to have the link to this piece so people can follow along if they want or read it afterwards. It's. You'll see, it's amazing. It's called Untangling Worms.
[00:12:05] Jake: All right. Untangling worms. Let's get into it.
I’m not angry anymore. It feels like a waste of energy to be angry. But I do have an unfamiliar feeling inside. One I can’t quite explain…. like there’s a bundle of worms in my gut, tangled in a knot so intense that no amount of wriggling can free them, forcing me to look inward to free them on my own. Worms are misunderstood. They’re perceived as gross, when, in fact, they have five hearts.
With each worm untangled, hearts are set free. And I come closer to understanding why the task of freeing them became my top priority today. Introspection. The freeing of the worms has reminded me I am capable of leading with love and positivity in a time when darkness seems to have blotted out the light.
The worms in my stomach have me unsettled by the fact that the vast majority of people in this country can so blatantly ignore the need for a good person to be our leader.
It’s as simple as a battle of good and evil. As a whole, we’ve let evil win. Our devolution as a society in the next few years presents only one logical path I see forward for myself. I have to teach.
The twisted definition of what it means to be ‘a man’ has deviated so far from the foundational qualities of being a human being. I see it as an epidemic. Men have deep-seeded mental health issues. We don’t talk about our emotions. And it leads to violence, misjudgement, narcissism, anger… because we don’t understand ourselves. Even worse, any attempt to understand ourselves is societally defined as weakness.
I am an emotionally intelligent man. It’s taken a lot of work, but I take pride in saying it confidently. I lead with my heart, oftentimes forgetting to let my head follow (Trust me… I’m working on it). But my heart and head have sent me hurling toward a goal of helping young men explore their identity in the context of individualism, self-awareness, and self-expression rather than trying to suppress these things to fit in the undersized box society has built for them.
In order to inspire change, we must create. Through creativity, the scabs of past emotional wounds will begin to fall from the skin, revealing the new life that was beneath them all along.
To create, I write. I do so as a way to affect change at my core and constantly challenge the impositions placed upon me by surrounding influences. It’s worked for me. And so WE must write.
We need a handhold for the young men who are grasping to find a way out of their box. We must explore our perceived limitations before we can find our way beyond them. Words, having the capability to inflict heinous depths of heartache, are also the only remedy for such pain. And so I write. And so WE write.
[00:16:55] Elizabeth: This is a manifesto, I feel like, for our entire boys / young men's program. And what you and I talk about all the time, about healing the masculine, which it's. There are two parts. The masculine is not that separate from the feminine. It's only been forced into this very opposite corner. But we all have the masculine and the feminine inside of us. All of us have these qualities. And what you have written describes it. I've never heard it described as Perfectly as you have described it in this essay. So I'm going to just quickly. I don't know how quick it'll be, but I want to just reflect back some lines I loved.
Obviously it would be way cooler if there were like five people in the room saying what they thought was powerful and strong about this piece. So I'm going to just capture some of the amazingness. I mean, every line in this was incredible, but just a few things. The first thing that caught me when I first read it, that boggled my mind and it was so cool to hear it again, is the bit about starting with the metaphor of worms and that worms are misunderstood, they perceived as gross. In fact, they have five hearts. I did not know that until I read this essay. Like, I had to google it afterwards because I thought, how the heck do you fit five hearts inside of those little squiggly bodies? But it's true. And then that line, with each worm untangled, hearts are set free, which is completely what this piece is about. Setting the heart free. I love when the piece starts pivoting. Like the writer examines what's happening in the world and how difficult and frustrating it is. And then we sort of pivot to this realization. The writer says, I have to teach. I got goosebumps the first time I read that. I was like, oh, this is big. And then I love how the writer talks about the societal definitions of what it means to be a man and how it leads to deep seated mental health issues. Because everything that is beautiful inside of men is basically crushed.
Men are as harmed by patriarchy as women. Just a different kind of harm, but it's. It's just as bad. And then I love how the writer talks about I lead with my heart and how I love this line.
The narrator's role is helping young men explore their identity in the context of individualism, self-awareness and self-expression, rather than trying to suppress these things to fit in an un in the undersized box that society has built for them. There's so much in that sentence. It's such a powerful sentence. It's so well said.
And then I triple starred this section because this is just like wisdom to live by. In order to inspire change, we must create through creativity. The scabs of past emotional wounds will begin to fall from the skin, revealing the new life that was beneath them all along. That's beautiful and powerful and true.
Also, To create I write, I do so as a way to affect change at my core and constantly challenge the impositions placed upon me. It's so I feel like this is the writer modeling in every single word in this essay, the writer is modeling the change he hopes to inspire in young men. He is being the change, as Gandhi said.
And then that line, we need a handhold. That's such a great phrase. We need a handhold for the young men who are grasping to find a way out of their box. Boy, now more than ever, that box is just gotten exponentially smaller and more violent. And so reading this piece feels like, oh, this is what we need, this writer. We need this writer. I love the writer saying, the only way into yourself is outward expression. Love the paradox of that. To get into yourself, you must express outwardly. And this line. Men have been robbed of this possibility for centuries. We talked about that book From Boys to Men that you and I both read. And one of his things statements for the end was. And this is why we now as the Intuitive Writing Project, has a program for young men is because we are feminists and part of feminism is we must also support feminism is the belief that everyone is equal. So if we really believe that, which we do, we have to make space for boys to have this expression which this writer is perfectly equipped to create this space. The writer. I love the next two paragraphs. Basically, everything said in the next two paragraphs I underlined, but I'll just read a few back. We have a responsibility to the young men of future generations to inspire them to cry without shame, to build a sense of self that can be shared, of confidence, to explore the power of emotion and the. Oh, one of my favorite parts of this piece, I should have said this at the beginning, is the repetition of and so we write. And so we write. And so we write. Because of course, this is what we believe in our hearts and this is why we both did this work. Is it is through writing that we find transformation, empowerment, healing, societal change. Right? And so we write. That should be our second tagline writing project. And so we write.
I love the line. In a world that has shamed men for emotional exertion of any kind for far too long, we need an outlet, a place to put the pain and anchor, oh my gosh, I want to blow. I want to magnify you or multiply you by a hundred and just spread you out all over the world because boys need this so much. I love the line. We have to stop dividing ourselves into narrow minded cliques and Begin to address the root causes of our divisiveness.
We have to understand that to be a man is to be human and that any emotions that come with being a man are pillars of the strength we have the privilege of building within ourselves.
So powerful. And then I love at the end, this is like I triple starred this. There is no one size fits all solution. To being a person, yes. To being a man, to being wholly oneself. There is only a choice. A choice to either operate from the inside out or the outside in. The choice is yours. This is so motivational. Like, not only is the writer speaking of their own experience in their own revelation, but I feel like they are giving permission to young men all over the country to do the same, which is what you do in your classrooms.
It's an incredible piece of writing. Absolutely. A manifesto for young men. So I wanted to ask you about the experience of writing it. When you started, did you get in the flow right away? Did you get stuck at all? What was the creative process like writing this?
[00:24:38] Jake: Yeah, so I think the, the creative process here was there was a lot of thought that happened before I sat down to write, a lot of exploration of the, the emotions that I was having and I was feeling before I, I actually put pen to paper. And I think that that side of things, the, the preparation to write can oftentimes be more daunting than the writing itself, I think, because, you know, when you actually write it, it's a way to make sense of all of those thoughts. But before you really get into that flow state. I feel like I just had a lot of thoughts and didn't quite know what direction or form they were going to take when I sat down to write this. And I think one of those, one of those big things was trying to make sense of the actual emotion and, and put it to, to words. Because it, it wasn't anger, it wasn't fear, it wasn't frustration. It wasn't any of those things. It was, it was this. I mean, the Tangled worms is as close as I could get to putting words to those feelings. And I think, I mean, when, when we take a step back and, and kind of look at the. The evolution of manhood and masculinity over time. When you're, when you're, young, you're. You're free. You're free to, to be, to think how you want to think, to say what you want to say. And over time, those feelings and that freedom gets constrained and the, the more constrained it becomes, the harder it is for you to feel that freedom all the way. And so over time, I think I've. I've spent a lot of energy trying to get back to that, that feeling of freedom, that sense of understanding what these things are that I'm grappling with, whether it's worms or boxes or, you know, chaotic representations of masculinity or whatever, that battle is ongoing. And I think there's a lot of moments still now where I find myself kind of like, jumping right back into that box, depending on who I'm surrounded by or who I'm speaking with. And so those flickers of freedom in the midst of that battle are the things that I've chosen to latch onto over time and the things that I've kind of. You know, oftentimes not so intentionally tried. To let guide the direction of my creativity and also my expressiveness. And I think the way that this piece kind of came together was. I mean, it was. It was quick. You know, it was maybe 20 minutes of actually writing. And I think the truth behind that is, is one that I'm still kind of grappling with a little bit because there's. There's more emotion in this that, you know, didn't necessarily come from the circumstance, but many, many circumstances over time. And it's. It's a culmination of things that I've been thinking and feeling for a really long time. And so to have a place to put that and finally, you know, let it. Let it out in a way that, you know, hopefully can, you know, be some level of inspiration to somebody somewhere. And to be sitting here discussing it. With you, I think, is. I mean, that's that freedom that I'm talking about. And just to, you know, take this thing where, you know, it's my. My outlet on a very personal level and take that outlet and present it in a way where, you know, other people can hopefully use it to discover their own outlet or at least start looking for one in a healthier context than would normally be acceptable. I mean, there's a million and one directions we could branch into conversationally when. When we start down that road. But I think the. The general gist of things is that this. I think this piece comes from growing up. You know, there's. There's a lot of root… I don't want to say trauma necessarily, but walls that have been built around what I'm allowed to do and say and feel and to Just sit down and. And, you know, channel all of the emotions that come along with those walls. And just, you know, kick them down and, you know, lean into, I guess that sense of freedom is, it's something that doesn't come along as often as I would like, but when it does, it's something that I always stry to latch onto consciously or unconsciously.
[00:30:33] Elizabeth: I love how you said, And I really resonate to this, that you'd been really thinking about all these ideas for a really long time. And that's a very specific type of writing that I deeply relate to. It's like cathartic writing that is like, the synthesis. Like, things have been bubbling up for a long time, and you just finally get a chance to sit down. I can't believe you did this in 20 minutes. It's such a powerful piece, but it makes sense because you almost had, like, rocket fuel behind you because you had all these days, weeks, years of these ideas that were just, like. We could say your intuition had been synthesizing them for a really long time. So they were like. If you think about the intuition as like a rice cooker, it was like everything had been cooked. It was ready to be written. It was. It was fully developed in your soul, and it just poured onto the page. I love that.
[00:31:25] Jake: Absolutely. It was like. Like a game of Jenga, where every thought and every circumstance that led to the toppling of the tower, you know, it's kind of stacked on there until the foundation of everything is weak to the point where something's just got to give and, you know, projecting that, the falling over of the proverbial box we're talking about.
[00:31:55] Elizabeth: That's right. I wanted to ask then, because this piece was very much a. A bubbling up over time, coming forth like it had been building inside of you. There's also the other kind of writing, and this is where most people get stuck. And I get stuck like this sometimes, too, where I start out. I know I need to write, but I'm kind of blocked, and I'm like, my brain's all over the place, and I don't even know where to start, or I think maybe. Maybe I don't have anything. Such a joke. It's so funny. Every time we think we don't have. We always have something to write about, but sometimes we think we don't. So I wondered if you had any advice for those moments when you. You're needing, you know, you need to write. You want to write, but you're just feeling like things aren't flowing. What do you do?
[00:32:44] Jake: Well, I mean, I. I think, you know, one of the AWA principles is don't, don't think, just write. And that's, that's one that I've. I've kind of latched on to because I think the only thing stopping us from creating is, you know, our own mental blockage. And if. If you just splatter that mental blockage onto a page, then, you know, you're off to the races. So, I mean, even. Even writing something like, you know, and I know you tell this to a lot of students, and I do as well, but I think the, you know, just write about not knowing what to write about. Get over that hump. Is a single word on a page can change your entire outlook as soon as it's out there. I mean, you know, it’s a pretty nerdy thing, but I've always been really interested in the etymology of words and like, the, the history and where a word comes from. And, you know, taking something like the. What's a good example? Like the word weird, for instance. It's great because, I mean, in like a Shakespearean context, the weirds, were a noun and it was referenced to witches. And then somehow that transpired. Well, somehow it's actually pretty obvious because if witches are weird, right. Witches are our weirds, then that weirdness is something kind of like unexplainable or quirky or whatever. And so, I mean, now weird means different and awesome. So I think the, like taking something like that and just thinking about a single individual word, whatever word is in your head, dropping it on a page and looking at it for a minute, rather than just thinking about it, putting in a physical, tangible context can create a foundation of exploration that can take you in an infinite multitude of directions.
[00:34:53] Elizabeth: I love that. Yeah, I think that's such a good reminder to everyone. It kind of goes with the initial thing of the meditation. The meditative quality of writing is like in meditation, you're not supposed to fight your mind. You observe it. And so I feel like this is sort of like writing about what you're blocked about. Is that sort of mindful observation, huh? I feel like I have nothing in my head right now. Why do I feel like this? And then you just keep going, and all of a sudden you have. You discover there's a lot you have to say, but you have to absolutely don't resist. Lean into the block.
[00:35:30] Jake: Well, something that I've been. I've been trying to meditate a lot more. And something that I've been really interested. In recently that's actually helped me kind of get over the. The creative blockage as well is this principle of rain meditation. I don't know if you're familiar. It's a. It's an acronym or. Yeah, I guess it's an acronym because it's an actual word versus an alphabetism that is a crazy literary term conversation. But I think the concept is the R stands for recognize. To, you know, recognize what you're what you're feeling, what emotions are there, what your kind of understanding of what's happening is. And then the A is allow. So you just kind of allow it to be. You sit with it for a minute. You, you know, let it sink in. And I think once you kind of settle with what the. Like, what you're recognizing, it's a little bit easier to get to the I portion, which is investigate and looking at.The feeling you're feeling and kind of dissecting why it's there, how it came to be, what it actually means. All of those different things lead you to the N, which is nurture. So, you know, the. Is kind of finding a way to understand why you're feeling the way you're feeling. And then that N is, okay, let me. Let me nurture the possibility that this is a passing emotion, that this is. Something that's just happening right now in the moment. And if I just, you know, nurture these feelings a little bit or nurture my interpretation of what's going on, chances are, I'll be able to look at it with sound mind and just move past it or, you know, if it's a positive thing, let it. Let it settle and let it. Let it become a part of the direction of thought that you're taking. And I think taking that principle, the rain principle, and also applying it to the way that you write. You know, if you sit down, you're feeling frustrated, you write the word frustration, and then, you know, allow it to be there for a minute and then investigate it. You know, why are you frustrated? And then nurture that understanding of, okay.You know, my frustration came from… It's cold outside and I spilled, you know, ice water down my pant leg, and that sucks. You know, that's frustrating. And so I'm frustrated. But realistically, it's not that big of a deal. It's just a little water. We're 70% water as human beings. Why does it matter if there's a little more water on the outside? It might be cold for a minute, but that's a passing thing. So, you know, I might look like I wet my pants. Who knows? Whatever that interpretation is, I think the nurturing aspect aspect of it is, hey, you know, I'm, I'm okay. And, and this doesn't actually have that much bearing on my ability to continue to lead positively and with love and light and all of that stuff.
[00:38:47] Elizabeth: Absolutely. This is amazing writing prompt. You should totally do this with your young men. Like, this would be a great warm up prompt. That could lead to a much longer prompt is just do those four steps.
[00:38:59] Jake: This is, I love that idea. I think so.
[00:39:04] Elizabeth: I mean, because this is what writing does. I think we sort of, without intuitively, without realizing we, we kind of organically go through these steps when we write. But to present them so clearly, I feel like it gives young men a really nice structure and like, you go, these are the steps you go through. And we're going to, we're going to recognize, allow, investigate and nurture some like, specific feeling they're having right now. That'd be awesome.
[00:39:31] Jake: Absolutely. I completely agree. I. So I did a short form writing course with a group that exists at my old high school that's actually called Boys to Men, which is awesome. And these young guys had no idea about the boy band. They're, you know, too young to understand too. So, you know, I think that it's, it's just a funny little coincidence there. But we, we sat down and I. Just had them write a list of things that were frustrating. You know, just quick. And then we, we started talking about it. And what was really interesting me in that circumstance was that a lot of the things that were written down were very observational. Looking at the, the outside world, looking outward and not very much focused on. You know, why is this thing frustrating to me specifically? So, you know, taking that concept of rain and applying it to a situation where, you know, I'm frustrated that people feel the need to use drugs and alcohol all the time to, you know, make themselves feel better. The question then becomes, okay, well why.
Why is that frustrating to you specifically? Why is that resonating? Why is that there allowing it to be and investigating that deeper understanding from. Your own kind of interpersonal context and then nurturing those thoughts into something like, okay, you know, I'M frustrated that other people do it because maybe it's detracting from my relationships with my friends or. Something along those lines. You know, you never know. It's going to be a different situation for everybody who tries to dissect that particular sentiment. But I think the, the point being, I think a lot of times as men, we, we see, we see these things that are bothersome, but the way that we look at it is there's. This thing that's wrong or this thing. That I don't like about everything that's happening around me. Rather than looking at it from the perspective of, you know, this, this thing is frustrating to me because XYZ experience or, you know, whatever thing I've been suppressing or, you know, I think there's, there's a lot of different ways to, to look at that. But I, I think the, the overall point there being when we encounter emotion, I think we tend to place blame somewhere else rather than disregarding blame entirely and investigating it instead.
[00:42:26] Elizabeth: Which what you wrote about so beautifully, you said it's the choice between being outside in versus inside out.
[00:42:34] Jake: Exactly.
[00:42:35] Elizabeth: Starting with the inside. And of course, this is what, this is part of the man box that the man box says you look out, it's out there. Hey, so. And then writing is so perfect because you literally cannot write unless you pull from the inside. It comes from inside. So it, it in a very gentle, loving way, writing forces us to go inside and look.
[00:43:00] Jake: Absolutely. I love the concept of the man box… You have a limited space to play in. You have a little window that you can look out of and you know, assess the way the world works. But you also have the tools inside of that box to build yourself a ladder and climb out. So I think looking, looking at it from that perspective of, hey, I have all the tools that I need to, you know, look beyond this thing and not just look beyond, but climb beyond and, and start to be in a different way, in a different context, in a different light and, you know, and interpret the world from the inside out.
[00:43:42] Elizabeth: That's beautiful. Well, that brings me to my next and maybe final question. And this is, you're so wise. What would you say now, knowing what you know about so many things, being a mentor and role model and teacher for young men? What would you say to your, let's say, 14 year old self? Or what do you wish your, you could have heard from somebody but your future self could have told your 14 year old self what would have really helped you at 14 to understand.
[00:44:13] Jake: 14. What was I doing at 14? I think this is a, this is a, a funny little story, but in eighth grade, as a lot of my old middle school teachers still remember this. The guy who, the Salem witch trial project that he's, he was, he was around when this happened, but I was with a group of guys and there's this big flight of stairs at middle school and we were talking. Oh, you know, do you, do you think you could make it down? Like it'd be really cool if somebody could jump the whole staircase. And me looking at.
[00:44:51] Elizabeth: You're talking about like 12 stairs, like a full stairs?
[00:44:54] Jake: More than that. It was, I mean it was 20 some odd stairs. So I was in, I was in eighth grade and I, I thought, you know what, I'm, I'm probably invincible. I'm, I'm a big strong man. I'm going into high school, whatever, I'll jump the stairs. And I jumped and I landed right oO the edge of a stair and just snapped my ankle. And it was this whole. I remember being in the back of my mom's car and she's kind of giggling at me, but taking me to urgent care to go get X-rays and get it all sorted. And I just remember thinking, what the hell was I trying to prove? You know, why, why would I do that? There's no logic in that at all. And I, I still kind of think about that moment and wonder, you know, how different would I be if I had made it. How different would I be if I had cleared those stairs and landed on my feet and stood up and chucked my arms up in the air like Rocky and said, I'm a big strong man, you know, And I think that particular mentality is something that so many 14 year olds have. And you know, there's a, we have something to prove. You know, there's, there's this, this kind of, I, I don't know, this thing, this sort of ominous like manhood cloud that or, you know, goal that you're trying to reach and you know, trying to solidify your stake in the, the whole game of manhood. And, and it's usually some sort of physical thing, whether it's sports or jumping down stairs or, you know, lifting the heaviest rock or throwing the ball the farthest or whatever it is. It's just kind of this innate competitive nature that men have. And I think, you know, in the context, in that context, looking back at some of the. How do I put Iit nicely to my younger self, some of the not so smart things that I went for when I was that age. I, I think I would tell myself, you don't, you don't have anything to prove. Oh, you, you only have, you only have a lot to learn. And I think if you can, or if, if I could have reframed that for myself at a young age, I think I would have come to a point where I feel confident in my emotional intelligence much sooner. I think that is something that is so easy to get caught up in. And I also think at that age, that's kind of the first step toward boxing yourself in and getting stuck in. The man box is when you're trying to stack yourself up against other men in some capacity rather than allowing yourself to just be who you are.
[00:48:01] Elizabeth: That's so beautiful. It's so interesting because it's exactly the same for girls, but it's a different type of proving. Girls have to prove they're good enough, pretty enough, nice enough, sweet enough, sexy enough. It's a different. They're different rules, but it's the same proving. And it's the opposite of what you and I are talking about and what you said to your 14 year old self, which is that you have nothing to prove the idea that you are born exactly right. You're already wonderful and loved and precious and needed and just be who you are. There's nothing to prove. That makes me cry. I got a little choked up.
I love that. And that is what you're going to be instilling and, and what you already are instilling in young men is that yeah, no matter what society says, society feels enormous right now because it feels like this with. I love how you described the manhood is like this ominous cloud. I feel like that feels like society in general feels like this big ominous cloud. And yet society is made up of individuals. And the more that each individual person recognizes their innate goodness and enoughness that we're free.
[00:49:18] Jake: Absolutely. I think at that age it's such a hard thing to do. I mean, it's such a hard thing to look inward and say, I am enough. I'm good. This is what I have to work with. So I'm gonna learn more about the tools that I have and all of these things. And I don't think I really came to that understanding about myself until, I mean, frankly, probably Covid when I had a lot of time on my hands to think and create and investigate and all, all of those things. But up to that point is just kind of these, these questions of how do I measure up so, you know, skipping out on the proving yourself side of things and, and recognizing individuality is actually where your true power is going to come from.
And, you know, taking the time to learn how to approach that versus trying to approach all of these other things, throwing the ball farther or, you know, being some mathematical genius, if that's the lane you're in, what. Whatever that challenge is. And however it presents yourself, I think there's always a choice to either lean in to that or peel away and. And, you know, go your own direction. And I think it's. It's always the people who go their own direction that wind up making the most impact and, and saying the coolest things and being the most interesting in the long run that. Short term.
[00:50:57] Elizabeth: Yeah. That individuality, that is our power. That's our magic. Being around people who are authentically themselves is a delight. Yeah. It gives permission for everyone else to do the same, basically.
[00:51:16] Jake: Absolutely. It opens more doors than it closes.
[00:51:20] Elizabeth: Yeah. And of course, all of these, we have to give ourselves grace because we all grew up in the. The man box with the woman box, and they were horrible boxes. So what you and I are doing is we are dismantling the boxes, and then I trul. Truly believe Gen Z Alpha. Gen Alpha. They are the ones who are going to really build a whole new world because people like us are saying, go forth now. You get to create a world that's actually supportive for human beings.
[00:51:52] Jake: Absolutely, Absolutely.
[00:51:54] Speaker B: Jake, you are in your emotional intelligence and vulnerability and authenticity, continue to be a delight to talk with. We could talk, probably. We could have a 10 hour podcast. It would be really long.
[00:52:07] Jake: I think we definitely could have a good time doing it, too. Scratch the surface on, you know, the existence of worms and witchcraft.
[00:52:17] Elizabeth: That's right. There's so much more to discuss, but we will end it today for the sake of our listeners. You're welcome. We'll stop now… Thank you for your time for being who you are, for sharing your writing and you have. For having this conversation.
[00:52:34] Speaker C: Absolutely. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you and, you know, I'm. I'm looking forward to putting out some goodness in the world and helping some young men figure out how to write and how to be and, you know, all of those things that we already talked about, so love it.
[00:52:55] Speaker B: Perfect. All right, well, thank you again and we'll talk more soon.
