Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender-expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.
For a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program eleven years ago because it's what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That's why we use the Amherst Writing method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology, I wish everyone learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst Method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and With Others. But the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are number one: everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Number two: everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And number three: our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed.
In our classes, everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded, positive feedback. By that I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us since we can't violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there. These 1:1 or 1:3 people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our and read our students words as they were published on our blog, the Intuitive Voice, with the link below.
If you enjoy listening to one young reader, read their words and talk about it. Imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It's pretty life changing, and there is a lot more I could say about it, but I'll let these young writers speak for themselves.
On behalf of all the writers at the Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices, for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people.
Today I am so happy and honored to be interviewing one of our incredible young writers, Lena Norris- Raman, who is going to be reading a truly beautiful piece of writing which we're going to discuss in depth as well as the creative process in general. But first, I'd love to have Lena introduce herself if you would say your pronouns, your age. And also, we always start by having our guests share a little story about their first memory of writing being fun.
[00:03:20] Lina: Yeah. My name's Lina. My pronouns are she/her. I'm 12 years old and the first time I can remember having fun writing was actually after I read the Wings of Fire series for the first time.It's funny because I didn't really like it that much, but I don't know, something about it inspired me to write my own story in, like, the perspective of a dragon. So I. Yeah, I tried it and I actually enjoyed it. And ever since then, I've been writing a lot.
[00:03:57] Elizabeth: Oh, wait a second. Do you remember how old you were when you did started writing about yourself from the perspective of a dragon?
[00:04:07] Lina: Maybe six or seven? Yeah.
[00:04:08] Elizabeth: Oh, my gosh. That's so young. That's amazing. And I have to say, I mean, you're still young, but I remember when a couple years ago, we had our last anthology reading and. Yeah, and you were, I think. Was it two years ago or three years ago? Yeah, you were a lot tinier because you were a lot. That was like.
[00:04:30] Lina: Yeah, I grew a lot. I might have been like 4, 6 at that time.
[00:04:36] Elizabeth: This is the time that you grow taller. It's great. What if we just kept growing taller our whole life and you would know how old someone was if they were really tall.
[00:04:45] Lina: That's crazy. That would be so crazy.
[00:04:49] Elizabeth: That'd be awesome. It would be hard to, like, have to keep shopping for more clothes.
[00:04:53] Lina: Oh, my gosh. You'd have to spend money your whole entire life.
[00:04:58] Elizabeth: I guess this is why this doesn't happen. So the world is going to get hear you, Lena, here first. Someday I'm sure you'll be very famous and well known, but, this is your first public performance, reading your work on your own. If you would read the piece you just wrote recently.
[00:05:18] Lina: Yeah.
To Be A Girl
Each glance in the mirror shows someone new,
every version battling, not a nice enough view.
Her nose too big, her waist too wide—
never pausing to think of what’s inside.
The guilt that pangs when she takes a bite,
she keeps it hidden, locked in tight.
With trembling breaths, she steps on the scale.
The number too high, she knows she has failed.
She’s a painting, smudged, incomplete,
with tears in her eyes she accepts defeat.
The only girl she stares at more
is the girl whose beauty everyone adores.
Her body perfect, her hair a work of art.
She doesn’t see it—now that’s the worst part.
She’s seen herself, but can’t tell what’s real,
which versions are truth, and which ones she feels.
She only notices more flaws to fix,
her imperfections the topic she picks.
With red rimmed eyes
she’ll frown at the girl she can’t escape.
Distorted. Dysmorphic. Out of shape.
[00:06:17] Elizabeth: Oh wow, this so beautiful. So well said. So powerful. This. I feel like we could just talk about the themes of this piece for an hour. We're not going to do it, but we could because there's so many layers meaning in it. I want to start by saying, first of all, it's amazing that this writer made this rhyme. I think rhyming is really, really hard. Like Dr. Seuss level rhyming is different. Cat. Mat. Mat. But this is advanced rhyming. So good.
And then there's so much beautiful language in here, and it really speaks to what we talk about all the time. The beauty myth and the pressures on girls in this patriarchal society to look a certain way, where it's, like, impossible to be, “ perfect enough” because the standard is insane. And I feel like you capture that. I mean, the very first line. “Every glance in the mirror shows something new. Every version battling not a nice enough view.” I mean, every girl in the world and woman can relate to this. This. What we do is we internalize the judgments of society and we look at ourselves through that lens, and it's very painful. And you captured it. It's really kind of the torment that all girls go through.
I loved the poetry of this. “She's a painting, smudged, incomplete, with tears in her eyes. She accepts defeat,” because there is this awareness, on one hand, social pressures saying that you have to look a certain way. And then there's also the realization that that is impossible. TI don't know that anyone, even famous models and movie stars, I don't think they feel pretty enough, which is insane. Yeah, I also love this bit, the whole stanza about “the only girl she stares at more is the girl whose beauty everyone adores, but she doesn't see it.” And that's exactly what I was saying. Even the people that we idolize, that we hold up is like, okay, they're beautiful. They don't feel beautiful because they live in this culture that makes every girl and woman feel not good enough.
[00:08:35] Lina: Exactly.
[00:08:38] Elizabeth: And then I loved this language. Boy, you have really great vocabulary for your age. There are adults who don't know dysmorphic, that is body dysmorphia is a very real and painful thing. And I love how you put the two Ds, alliteration, “distorted, dysmorphic” together. That was really beautiful. And then of course how you rhymed “out of shape” rhyming with “she can't escape.” And that whole idea that it's this. It's like the water we swim in if we were fish. This is our, our water. And it's, it does feel like there is no escape from it except to really ignore all the things society tells us and learn to love ourselves, which is what we're working on. But it's very hard.
I wanted to ask you, do you remember how old you were when you first started feeling this pressure to look a certain way?
[00:09:47] Lina: I would say like, honestly, like seven.
[00:09:55] Elizabeth: Seven?
[00:09:57] Lina: Yeah.
[00:09:57] Elizabeth: Gosh. That is second grade?
[00:10:01] Lina: Yeah, second grade.
[00:10:03] Elizabeth: Okay, that's really interesting. I mean I've read a lot of things about how it's around 7 or 8 that are more rational brain, our self critical brain, gets activated. So that's not surprising. But it's also much younger than previous generations. I think previous generations had a little bit longer childhood and your childhood has been shortened. Can you also remember what was one of the influences? Like did you have access to, was it like social media images or TV things? Like what was the thing that really started, kick started that, that self-judgment?
[00:10:45] Lina: Honestly, I can't remember much of what I watched or like saw online at the time. But I do remember just having a little bit of an understanding that some girls in the class I was in were prettier than me and looked better than me. And it was that time when I started, you know, comparing myself to other girls.
[00:11:14] Elizabeth: So what I'm hearing is started recognizing differences. Did you ever read the book “The Ugly Duckling” when you were little? It’s like the swan was a swan. But they were comparing themselves to ducklings. And so like the ducklings were like, you look weird, what's wrong with you? But it's because it wasn't a duckling, it was a swan. I think that happens to all of us. There’s very much in our society like a specific look that's considered the ideal. And if you don't have that look, then it feels like we're wrong. And I relate to that.
[00:12:00] Lina: Girls growing up in areas where they don't see a lot of people who look like them. Like, if they grow up in an area where they're surrounded by people who are not of their race or they just don't have the same features as them, they can often feel, like, really ostracized and, you know, just really different and just not beautiful.
[00:12:26] Elizabeth: That is so true. I think it was Maya Angelou who said we can't become or we can't be what we can't see. So we have to see people like us who are ahead of us sort of as role models. And if we don't see someone who looks like us, it almost feels like we don't belong there.
[00:12:49] Lina: Yeah.
[00:12:50] Elizabeth: And it's. It's especially true. You're right. Like, the racial piece of this is huge and beyond, you know, incalculable for people who look a certain way. They can't even imagine what that feels like. But what's interesting about this piece is that it works on so many levels. Like, on some level, the writer is speaking about feeling racially different, but then it also speaks to, probably ironically, the girls who, quote, check all the boxes and quote, are the ideal. Every girl. Every girl who hears this piece and woman, I should add, would feel resonance to it and would feel like this. And like, that's how, you know society is out of whack, whenever everybody feels bad. Yeah, this is not working.
[00:13:41] Lina: Yeah. I have so many friends who are, like, so gorgeous. Like, they are so gorgeous. And they call themselves ugly and bad looking, always down on themselves. And sometimes I'm like, if you're ugly, then I must look like roadkill or something.
[00:14:00] Elizabeth: Oh, gosh. It's brutal out there. And everyone is suffering. That's what's so ironic. Even the people that when I was younger, I thought had everything going for them, I learned in retrospect later that they were suffering and struggling. We're living in a culture that's very mean and very judgmental and causes us to internalize it. And then that's really. If you want to control people, the ultimate way is you make them police themselves. And of course the ultimate way to control women, of course, is make us police ourselves. We've talked about that before. But, yeah, I want to talk about the power of writing to be the antidote.
So we know that writing allows us to connect to our voice, to find, to connect to our deeper truth. And express who we really are. So I would love to get your thoughts about just the experience, not only of writing this piece, but reading it out loud and how you felt afterwards. What I think is also so powerful about what you wrote is you were able to express something that's really difficult and painful and universal. And the very act of writing, for me, at least, helps me feel better, and it helps me process my life and helps me make sense of things. And there's a whole bunch of cool science about how when we write about something difficult, it actually moves in our brain from the back part of our brain to the front part of our brain where we can process it better and. And sort of find peace. So I wanted to talk with you about what was the experience? First, we say. We always say there's two parts. There's the writing part, where you're just expressing, and then there's the reading it out loud part, which feels very different, and then there's after that. So actually there's three parts. So tell me about how was it for you to write it and then to hear yourself read it and then to get feedback in class? Of course, everybody loved it. How was all of that for you?
[00:16:14] Lina: So I really felt like it helped me clear my head and, like, really get my thoughts out into, like, one piece. Because oftentimes my thoughts are really, like, scrambled around in my head, and I'm like, wait, where are you going? You know, come back.
So, yeah, I feel like it really just helped me, you know, put it into words. And when I was reading it out loud, too, I felt like it really described how I felt. And, you know, it sounded more sad and, like, challenging than I had first originally thought it to be. You know, like, I kind of realized, like, this is a big deal. It's not just, you know, something little that I go through sometimes, you know, it felt like more when I saw it, you know, on a piece of paper. And. And I think, like, as well, I feel like it helped me really understand what I was feeling to write it out. And I feel like that helps me all the time to write what I'm feeling. And then honestly, like, I come up with new thoughts every time when I'm writing and I'm just flowing, I can come up with new things. I feel, like, also really resonate with my experience.
[00:17:57] Elizabeth: That's so beautifully said. I feel the same. There's something magical that happens that allows us to sort of organize and make sense of our feelings.
I often don't know why I'm feeling what I'm feeling until I start writing about it. So it also, for me, I feel like writing helps me to have more compassion for myself because I'll be. We've talked about this. We can. I'll be really hard on ourselves, like, why are you, blah, blah, blah. And then you write. In fact, actually, you did a really beautiful piece a few weeks ago. It was too personal to publish, but you wrote about a letter of compassion to your younger self. And I feel like that is exactly what happens when we write, because it's like hearing our own voice and realizing that what you just said, like, this thing is bigger than you thought it was.
[00:18:47] Lina: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Elizabeth: It's like, no wonder you're struggling with it. It's a hard thing.
[00:18:54] Lina: Yeah. And I felt like when I read it out loud and when I write it, I. It kind of helps me to realize, too, that, like, I'm a person, too, and I need to treat myself that way because sometimes, you know, I just divide myself and people around me, and I can have so much compassion for people who have, you know, just not been great people to me and others, and I still can't seem to find any compassion for myself.
[00:19:29] Elizabeth: That is so relatable. Once again, we're so similar. I have a similar problem, and I. You actually gave me a really interesting insight that I had never thought of before about writing. And I think part of the reason that writing helps us be more compassionate with ourselves is because when you write and put your thoughts on paper, they almost become separate from us. So you spoke about. It's so much easier to have compassion for other people because they're outside of you.
[00:19:59] Lina: It's like reading somebody else's work, but it's really yours.
[00:20:02] Elizabeth: YES! Exactly! It feels like reading somebody else's book, work, or words. And then you're like, oh, that's so. That's really hard. And then you're like, oh, that's me. I'm dealing with something really hard!
[00:20:18] Lina: Yeah.
[00:20:21] Elizabeth: Yeah. I love that. I feel like you do such an exemplary job every week of speaking your truth and coming to some sort of beautiful insight about the human condition. You're very wise. You. You know things that most adults don't understand, honestly.
[00:20:39] Lina: That's really sweet.
[00:20:41] Elizabeth: So I wanted to ask you now about the creative process. Those times that you don't know what to write about, or you start writing and you're like, oh, my God, where am I going with it? What advice would you give to other writers, other young writers, based on your own Experience what you do when you get stuck.
[00:21:02] Lina: My dad is actually. He's published a book, and he's in the process of writing a book. And one of the things that he. One of the quotes he has on his desk is, “don't get it right, get it written.” And I feel like that's so, you know, powerful because a lot of times I'm always stuck in the editing process. You know, I could write a sentence and feel like I should change every single word.
But what's important is that you get that sentence and you move on and you keep writing and keep. Just keep writing, you know, even if it's something you don't like, even if you're like, oh, my gosh, this is horrible, just keep writing because, you know, it'll just flow. It will flow. And once you're done, you can go over and edit it. And a lot of times when I finish writing, I go over it and realize it's not really as bad as.
[00:21:56] Elizabeth: I thought it was, that I feel like that. Okay, first of all, that's such great advice. Don't get it right. Get it written. Everything you just said, brilliant. You come by your talent naturally in your family of writers. Also, I think this is so true to what happens in every class. At least one person, sometimes it's you, sometimes it's someone else says, oh, my gosh, I don't know what I wrote. And you're in your head. And I do this to 100 in my own writing classes where I think, what the heck was this? And I just assume it's bad. And if we stop. And we stopped ourselves from writing it, we would never know what an amazing thing we created. And this is what happens when you read your writing out loud, then, oh, it's actually great.
[00:22:49] Lina: And I feel like it's never bad. If it's truly what you feel and you put all your emotions out there in your Google Doc or your piece of paper, you know, whatever. If it's really what you truly feel and you feel like you expressed it in the way that you normally would, then it's not bad, no matter how. Maybe it sounds too simple. It doesn't sound detailed enough. It doesn't sound good when you. It doesn't roll off the tongue. But if it's what you feel, then it's never bad. And I bet you there's someone out there who will relate to it.
[00:23:26] Elizabeth: That is so perfectly said. We're gonna have to use this whole paragraph as pull quote. This is so true. When you express what you truly feel, it's never bad. It's your. It's beautiful. Usually when you express. Express the truth of your heart. And like you said, we always say this. The most personal is the most universal. When you express some deep truth for yourself, so many people, if not everyone says, I feel the same, thank you for expressing it. It's such a relief.
[00:24:05] Lina: And just like you said, like, it might be too personal for you to share, but, you know, it's it's personal for you, then it's somebody else's experience. And it's. It's such a nice thing because when nobody talks about something and you're the one to put it out there and finally be like, okay, I'm just gonna say it. You know, I'm feeling this way. And then I feel like so many people are like, well, now that you say it, like, yeah, I feel the same way. But nobody else was talking about it, you know?
[00:24:44] Elizabeth: Yes. Oh, boy. You just put your finger on the pulse of basically every social justice movement from the beginning of history. Somebody has to talk about the thing first. The thing that is unfair or wrong has to be expressed. Because if we just hold it inside, nothing changes. And you have. It's just. We also talk about how when we keep it inside, we think we're the only one that feels this way. We're the only one that feels weird or ugly or strange or ashamed. And then you say it out loud and everyone's like, I feel the same.
[00:25:21] Lina: Yeah.
[00:25:22] Elizabeth: Writing really connects us. I mean, we're all storytellers. Even if people are not writing it on paper when they say it out loud, it's writing on the air.
[00:25:33] Lina: Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't feel great to know that other people feel the same way as you, but oftentimes it's great to know that you're not alone in feeling how the way you're feeling.
[00:25:48] Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Because you're such a compassionate person, you don't want to anyone to suffer, ever. You're one of the most compassionate people I know be. But there is comfort in it. And I think the big theme of all of this is that as you write and express your experience honestly and from the heart, it actually changes the experience. It transforms you, and it transforms the other people. And then it. You're no longer stuck. Like, whatever is bad starts changing.
[00:26:19] Lina: Yeah. And when you write something, you realize your memory of it is not the way that you originally had it in your mind because when you're writing it, you off, you like remember little details and you can interpret them in different ways and you realize your memory of something is actually. You interpret it different than you had originally had it.
[00:26:45] Elizabeth: Oh my gosh. That is such a deep and profound insight that how we interpret things changes as we tell the story and as we connect to the truth of what was really happening. And this is why, gosh, I wish everyone enjoyed writing. I know that some people actively hate it, but it's so therapeutic.
[00:27:09] Lina: Yeah.
[00:27:09] Elizabeth: So empowering.
[00:27:11] Lina: I feel like some people are really set in their ways of thinking and when they hear something they just think, no, you know, it's not true. But I think if they maybe took the time to actually write about it and sit and think with their thoughts about everything and just wrote it all out, then maybe they would change their views on a lot of things.
[00:27:34] Elizabeth: Wow. What you're saying is very deep and real and true that it does help you change how you think. It changes how I think all the time. So many times I think one thing before I start writing and by the time I finished I'm considering another perspective, if not a com. I've already changed my mind. So for our final question, even though I could talk to you forever, I need to let you go. What advice would you give to a girl who was, let's say a year younger than you? We can sort of pull from you. Practice this question a bit. When you wrote a letter to your younger self, a compassionate letter, what words of advice would you give to a 11 year old girl to encourage her?
[00:28:23] Lina: Well, obviously I don't have all the answers. I'm still struggling with a lot of things that I write about. But I do think that, you know, just keep going. You know, if you stop doing what you're doing, like, I know it can be so hard to like keep going to school, keep writing, keep doing things, keep doing little mundane things that you are, like, why am I even doing this when I'm in such a bad state right now? You know, like, does this even really matter? Yeah, but it does. You know, every single little thing matters. And if you just keep going and you keep doing it, and I know sometimes you can feel burnt out or done, but you know, I would say just keep going and remember to like give yourself compassion. You know, affirmations are really good and just tell yourself kind words and if you need a break, obviously take it. But just remember to pick things back up when you're feeling a little better and don't stop doing what you're doing. And obviously, if you're not writing, start writing because it really clears your head. And especially sometimes I'll have like a bunch of things to do and there's something I struggle with. I feel so overwhelmed just writing everything down. It doesn't even have to be writing a poem. Just writing everything down in a to do list. That helps me so much.
[00:30:06] Elizabeth: That's incredible. I think anyone listening to this interview can hear the incredible wisdom and insight of this young person. You are, I can say with true confidence, you have more wisdom and insight than many adults three times your age. So it is truly an honor to to hear your reading, hear support your writing and just get to honestly learn from you because you are, I think, meant to do great things in the world. And I'm excited to meet you at the beginning of a glorious career. So thank you so much, Lena, for your time and your energy.
[00:30:50] Lina: I'm so happy to do this.
[00:30:52] Elizabeth: We may have to interview you again in a few years because you're gonna have even more insight.
[00:30:59] Lina: Yeah.
[00:31:00] Elizabeth: Wait till you're 14. Or 16… Thank you again for your time and thank you for sharing your wise words. Hopefully you will uplift and encourage many others because of what you share tonight.
[00:31:16] Lina: That's really sweet. Thank you so much.
