The Magic of Elana Joy

Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth. My name is Elizabeth Perlman and I created this organization because it was what I wanted and needed when I was young. In the eleven years since we offered our first writing class, I'm happy to say that our mission remains the same, to offer a safe, encouraging space for girls to speak their truth and find their voice. The structure of all our classes is based on the Amherst writing method, which is one of the most nurturing and empowering writing systems I know of. You can read more about the Amherst method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, “Writing Alone and With Others.” But the basic principles and the ones that guide all our classes are one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard and three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed. Since we usually talk with our young writers, I thought it would be inspiring to also interview each of our teachers, to give the world the chance to meet them and see just how fun and smart and brilliant they are. On behalf of all the young writers at the Intuitive writing project, thank you for listening. May you always speak your truth and know that it matters. Today, I am so honored and excited to be talking with my beloved friend and colleague, Elana Joy, who is a brilliant young writer and amazing teacher. She's our creative writing teacher for grade school and some middle school, and she is the Director of our After School Programs, which is a huge job and we're so grateful and honored to have her do this work for The Intuitive Writing Project. I wanted to profileElanatoday because she's an exceptional writer and I want everyone to get to know how fantastic and magical and brilliant she is. And this gives you also a taste for how inspirational, inspiring it would be for your child to be in her class. I wish I had been in her class when I was little. I want to introduce her to you by having her answer a few simple, fun questions we ask everyone. First, I've already been using her pronouns, but you should. Elana, please also start by telling us your pronouns and your favorite kind, your favorite genre of book, type of book to read, and also your favorite type of writing to do for your own joy. [00:02:54] Elana: Okay, yeah. My name is Elana Joy. I'm a writer and my pronouns are she, her, and my favorite genre to read is probably magical realism, and my favorite type of writing to do for myself probably memoir. Also rhyming stories, as you'll see today. [00:03:18] Elizabeth: Oh, my gosh. You are amazing at both of those mediums, which we will talk about that shortly. I also wanted to ask you if you would share just a little anecdote. We do this with the girls as well, which, it's funny, because even when you're a teenager, you still look back on your childhood. It's still in the past, but for us, it's further in the past as women. But can you remember your first, like, what was your first, most memorable experience of writing as a child? That you were like, oh, my God, this is magical? [00:03:53] Elana: Well, I actually have it right here. [00:03:55] Elizabeth: Oh, my God. [00:03:57] Elana: This is actually the second diary I was given as a kid. 1999. It was June, so I was seven. Seven years old, yes. And I remember sitting in the backseat of my mom's red Mazda and writing this piece about living in California, because I just loved it here so much as a child. [00:04:20] Elizabeth: Aw. [00:04:21] Elana: So here we go. June 1, 1999. If anyone knows how beautiful the west is, the animals would love to hear the sound of the wind blows across the forest, and the grass and flowers blow softly in the breeze. The west is a perfect place to have s'mores. You can have warm fires and your own horses and ponies. The west is better than six flags. The west is like a palace, but doesn't have kings and queens. Well, that's it. Bye. [00:04:58] Elizabeth: Oh, my God. You should read that to some of your students. I think they would just love to hear that. First of all, it's a time capsule. Like, writing is totally a time capsule. It captures the little person, little Elana, when she was seven. I'm so struck by how eloquent she is. I love how the writer says, the West. That sounds so, like, I don't know, sophisticated. And it also gives you a sense. The writer has a sense of space. Like, it's not just California, it's the West, because there's also an East, there's a middle, and there's an East. And you have this sense of understanding geography that most kids don’t have. [00:05:41] Elana: My mom’s from the East coast and was always referring to going back East, back East. So I knew there was a difference between the West and the East. [00:05:53] Elizabeth: See, most kids who are born in California don't have that understanding. So that's very cool already like a little global citizen. And then I love that line about, it's like a palace, but without kings and queens. Could you read that again? [00:06:10] Elana: Yeah. The West is like a palace that doesn't have kings and queens. [00:06:14] Elizabeth: That is such an incredible observation for a child. It makes me think of, like, the big buildings and the big trees and the big oceans. Like, there's this enormity. It felt enormous to this child. [00:06:29] Elana: I remember walking through, like, San Francisco as a kid and looking at the buildings and thinking, oh, my goodness, these buildings are humongous. And now walking through the city, it's a bit of a different feeling, right? [00:06:42] Elizabeth: That's right. Big time difference. But, yeah, it has this beautiful reverence and awe. And then also, like, a lot of maturity. You can see the maturity of the writer. And this is, like, literally somebody who's born to be a writer. And then also there's, like, moments of, like, this is a seven year old. Because she's like. “And that's it. Bye.” [00:07:03] Elana: That's my favorite part. And I just want to clarify. I did not have my own horses and ponies, nor did I know anybody with their own horses and ponies. So I don't know why that was something I specified one could have in the west. But maybe I was thinking of, like, old Westerns, you know, maybe. [00:07:21] Elizabeth: Or, yeah, you saw something on TV or, I mean, maybe you passed, like, horses in a field when you were driving or something. [00:07:28] Elana: It's very possible. [00:07:30] Elizabeth: So I wanted to ask you about how you felt. I mean, it. I love writing. Having writing from childhood is the most magical thing. But while you were writing it, how did it feel? And then, like, when you finished it, did you like, what was that like? [00:07:45] Elana: I just remember always being so proud of the things I wrote and, like. So, like, I remember reading them over and thinking, like, wow, that's really good. Yeah, I love that. [00:07:58] Elizabeth: And I love that. [00:08:01] Elana: I definitely remember reading it to my mom. And, I mean, part of why she got me diaries in the first place was she was a single mom. She worked a lot, and she worked from home as a medical transcriptionist, which is now an obsolete job. Yeah, yeah. Taking, like, voice recorders of doctors saying their medical notes. And then she would take them home and type them. So I would like to, you know, be pretend typing, too, or writing. [00:08:27] Elizabeth: That's so true. We always want to imitate the parents. [00:08:32] Elana: But most often I'd be like, mom, let me tell you a story. Let me tell you a story. So finally she's like, you know what? You can just write this down. Nice, nice, nice. [00:08:44] Elizabeth: So do you remember reading this particular story to her? Like, what was her response? Do you remember that? [00:08:50] Elana: I remember sitting in the back of the car and reading it to her? I don't remember her exact response, but she was always incredibly supportive of my writing, and so I assume she was like, wow, that's great. Keep writing. You know, that's what she always did, so I'm very lucky. Sure. [00:09:09] Elizabeth: You had a little Intuitive Writing Project in your mom, because that's what we do, is we just encourage writers to keep going and we give them positive feedback. So I love that she did that because it is she. You would know if she had given you. You would remember if it was negative feedback. And I can speak for myself. Negative feedback got me to stop writing. So it's amazing. Like, it just takes a little bit of encouragement to keep us going and also a little bit of discouragement to stop us in our tracks. [00:09:40] Elana: Exactly. I love when my students, like, tell me about how their parents are, like, oh, I read my story to my mom and they loved it. But it breaks my heart when they come back and they're like, oh, they said that this part wasn't good, or I shouldn't write poop. So I'm like, oh, man, you should write about poop if you want to. [00:10:01] Elizabeth: It is a worthy topic. Everything is a worthy topic. I'll make a quick note. We have this up on our website, but I'll just mention that this is something we always tell parents about. If your child reads something to you, we would love it if you used at least an aspect of the Amherst Writing Method, which we're going to get into in a minute, but which is to focus on what is strong and authentic and powerful in the writing, only positive feedback. And if parents can just remember that even. I mean, of course the adult mind is going to recognize there are a million problems with something that. I mean, of course we can find problems, but try to appreciate the writing for its authentic beauty and notice the things really, like, even jot down. Cause sometimes I can't remember. Our audience can hear how I give feedback in a moment, and it comes from literally writing down what I'm hearing the reader say, because it's really hard to remember otherwise. And then you just read back a line that you heard the writer say, that was so incredible, and it's so empowering to have somebody repeat back to you something you said. [00:11:10] Elana: You know what's funny? I keep notes about what the girls write, my students and stuff. And yesterday in class, my notebook kind of flew open, went back to March 7 or something, and a girl saw her name and was like, are you taking notes on us. I said, yeah, I love to take notes about your writing. And they all started asking, how did we write on March 7? And when I was able to read them and tell them what I liked about it, they were so happy. They were like, oh, my goodness. I remember writing that. They were all looking back at them, right? It was a beautiful moment. [00:11:42] Elizabeth: That's amazing. I mean, for a child to have an adult who's not only listening to them in the moment, but remembering and memorializing what they heard them say in the past, that just has to make them feel so loved and heard. [00:11:59] Elana: Oh, I hope so. [00:12:00] Elizabeth: I love that. Elana, you're an amazing teacher. I really wish you had been my teacher. But we're going to give the audience a sense of your talent. Next, I want to have you read something you wrote more recently than age seven. You wrote, actually, a series of poems for the New York City Midnight Rhyming Story Challenge of 2023. And I'm going to have you tell us about that experience. But we wanted to profile the one particular poem that you wrote called “Black Hole,” which is just so fun and deep and amazing. But tell us first, how did you hear about the contest? And then how you got pretty far in the contest. Tell us about that. [00:12:44] Elana: So I was told about this organization, NYC midnight, from a colleague at Berkeley City College a few years ago. She enters different contests through them and thought that I might be interested. And then I saw that they were advertising for a rhyming story challenge. And rhyming stories have always been one of my favorite things. I loved Shel Silverstein growing up. I just loved rhyming stories. I loved making up rhymes, doctor Seuss, all of the classics. So I figured this would be perfect for me. It was the inaugural rhyming story challenge last year and I entered. Did not make it past the first round. But this year I entered, and the piece I'm going to read today placed 6th in the first round and got me to the second round. My piece for the second round got me into the finals, but I just recently learned that my finals piece did not make it, which is okay. I'm still very proud to have made it from a group of 2200 to about 60 people. [00:13:46] Elizabeth: That's amazing. And I just want to acknowledge that you tried a second time. Because most I've tried submitted stuff and gotten shot down and then gave up because I was like, it's too painful. But you tried the first time, didn't get in, tried the second time and went quite far. You really got like into the top 10% the second time. [00:14:08] Elana: Thank you. Well, one of the reasons I do this competition is for the feedback, and I do wish it were AWA feedback. They give you some critical feedback, but it has helped me build myself as a writer and so I entered again this year for that, and it turns out it was quite useful. [00:14:26] Elizabeth: That's so brave. [00:14:28] Elana: Teaching with the Intuitive Writing Project has been very useful too, and inspiring and empowering. I credit this conversation with my success, as well. [00:14:38] Elizabeth: Well, it's really important to walk our talk, and I'm like the worst at that. I'm finally starting to walk my talk in terms of giving myself time for writing. Ironically, I spent so much time building the organization, I didn't have time to do my own writing. And then I realized we cannot teach what we ourselves are not practicing. And so I've gotten back to my own writing and it is a joy. I love talking about writing. That's why we're going to talk about your writing. I'm going to have you take your time when you read this because it's so fantastic and I want everyone to savor the words of this piece. Black hole we're going to have the link underneath the podcast so people can read along if they want to or read afterwards. [00:15:18] Elana: Black Hole by ElanaJoy. The Autumn semester was halfway through and midterm exams were soon to be due. In the campus cafe students convened; over laptops and coffee they careened. I’d left my devices back in my dorm, needing a break and to drink something warm. Preferring to study alone instead, I people-watched and had coffee with bread. All prepped to study throughout night and day, students flipped through their notes with no delay . It was as if the whole place was in sync. Just then, sooner than a person could blink, the WiFi went out and there was a shout! “I’m gonna fail!” someone cried, “There’s, no doubt!” The cafe grew restless, filled with despair. One student announced, “I don’t even care.” Then distress was disrupted by a noise, a notice on all iPhones and Androids! Here’s what it read, though it may appear droll: Available WiFi Network: BlackHole Without hesitation students logged on. If only they had known what this would spawn. In no time at all, BlackHole had begun. Teasing and tingling the tips of their thumbs. Seemingly, against their will they first checked their socials, and concentration was wrecked. Each student had succumbed to elation. Each swipe depleted their motivation. Facebook, TikTok, Snapchat, and Instagram, obstructed work flow like a river dam. All focus on midterms redirected the moment phones and BlackHole connected. Derailed from their studies, easy to pull, seeking a thrill in a world less dull, the students were fed shots of dopamine, the doses received straight from a phone screen. Gathering data on what they loved best, BlackHole acquired strength amidst unrest. It lured the students into the darkness, replacing notes in their heads with starkness. Hoping to detach some began to squirm, fixated but restless, like an earthworm. This network was faulty; something was wrong. The drive to keep swiping was much too strong. Their goal of passing midterm assessments, was lost in BlackHole along with senses. What happened next was disturbingly odd. It may have been hackers or maybe God? Definitely caused by a force unknown, the following chilled me down to the bone: All at once, each phone screen shined a strange light. It was black but it glowed, blinding and bright. Quickly expanding, the darkness took hold; the students’ hunger grew the more they scrolled. Horrified, I watched them begin to rise up from their seats, emitting yelps and cries. Wailing with fear as a force sucked them in; each student consumed, I saw BlackHole win. The cafe was left empty, still and cold. BlackHole had grabbed ahold of all their souls. I shudder to think about that dark day, and now I avoid the campus cafe. [00:18:14] Elizabeth: I love the joyful language, the playful language for something that is a really dark kind of, I mean, I would say totally dystopian outcome that is very based on, very realistic and feels like it could totally happen, which makes it terrifying. That juxtaposed with the playfulness of the language. It is delightful. Also the dark humor. I love dark humor. And this is like totally my jam. This is absolutely thought provoking, equal parts thought provoking, chilling and delightful. I'm going to ask you, yes, I'm going to ask you at the end what of your favorite the part is, but I'm going to day do a little AWA feedback first. And of course, we always refer to the person who wrote it as the writer or the narrator or the author. So I'm going to speak to you in that way. I love how the writer really followed the heroine's journey with this. Like you begin with everyday life and it's very normal. There's a cafe and the narrator just wants a break and to drink something warm. It feels so innocuous, so simple and sweet, very relatable. And then, like all heroines journeys, the adventure starts to unfold and brings all kinds of positive and negative things which culminate in a dark night of the soul. Towards the end, the horror of unfolding. So dramatic and in a funny. In a dark humor way, it's also funny. And then in the end, narrator has, like all heroines journey. The narrator has learned something and become wiser and is no longer going to go back to the campus cafe. They've learned their lesson. But, okay, so I just want to. That's just, like, big picture. But I wanted to call out some lines. I love the dialogue in this. It's so funny, like how someone cries out, I'm gonna fail. Someone cried. There's no doubt. And then another one is like, I don't even care. So funny. I love. I mean, this is so realistic. This also feels like this could be a whole eight part Netflix series inspired by this concept about this wifi network called Black Hole that devours people's lives. Like, it could be a totally, like, riveting. You could really draw this out and make this an incredible movie or tv series. But it's all captured so perfectly in this very concise. That's another thing, the way that the writer is able to convey so much information so simply and concisely. And I really want to emphasize this because we talk about this in class all the time. It is hard for most of us, including me, to rhyme. Rhyming is. I mean, I can do, like, cat, hat, mat, but that's, like, the extent of it. And the rhyming in this is really sophisticated and clever. Oh, my God. Each student had succumbed to elation. Great word. Each swipe depleted their motivation. That is some advanced rhyming right there. And then. Yes. And then I love. I highlighted this because this is where I feel like in heroin's journey, things start going sideways. And this is, again, beautiful language. Derailed from their studies. Easy to pull. Seeking a thrill in a world less dull. So relatable. The students were shot. Feds were fed shots of dopamine. The doses received straight from a phone screen. My God. Dopamine screen doll. This is great rhyming. And then this whole thing about how this black hole is gathering data, again, very realistic. Replacing notes in their head with starkness. And then I love. There's some beautiful, like, nature metaphors. I love this line. Hoping to detach, some begin to squirm. Fixated but restless, like an earth war, which is so opposite from what's happening. Of course, this is like the opposite of nature. This is like technology gone awry. And then, oh, I love this. Line, what happened next was disturbingly odd. It may have been hackers or maybe God. That's an amazing line. It just really, again, this should be a movie. This could be an amazing movie. And then that the line. Each phone screen shined a strange light. It was black, but it glowed blinding and bright. Oh, my God. It's this incredible supernatural world that. It's not that supernatural. I mean, it feels like it could happen, but it's still magic realism. I think you. This definitely has magic realism in it. It definitely feels like it could happen. It's realistic and magical at the same time. And it's so much is so much happen. I can't believe how much happens in such a short poem and in such a playful, fun, playful poem. Like even the very end, the cafe was left empty, still in cold black hole had grabbed a hold of their souls. Is intense and deep and dark. And then the writer ends it with. I shuddered to think about that dark day. And now I avoid the campus cafe. So it's like this really intense, terrifying thing happened. But like, the. The narrator is fine. The narrator escaped and they learned the lesson and they, the narrator did not get pulled in to this black hole, which is great. And it actually, as I. I'm reading it again, I'm thinking about. It has a similarly joyful ending to the piece that you just read when you, about you wrote when you were seven. Like, the more sophisticated version of that is like. And now I avoid the campus cafe. Bye! [00:24:52] Elana: It's funny because I was just talking to my partner about how fight, fright, flight or freeze. I'm a flyer. You know, usually if I sense triple, I'm like, well, it's time for me. [00:25:01] Elizabeth: To get out of here. [00:25:03] Elana: Very reflective of the piece. Like, let me by. I'm done. I didn't bring my devices. I'm out of here. [00:25:13] Elizabeth: Right. That's right. That was set that up at the beginning that the narrator did not have the device that would have made them vulnerable to this horrible plague, technological plague. Okay, so I wanted to ask you, I know that I'm sure you've had many feelings about this piece as you've worked on it and revised it probably a million times, but hearing yourself read it today, what stanza or phrase or line stood out for you, that you felt like you really liked that the most? [00:25:44] Elana: It's funny because it's sort of a random one. [00:25:46] Elizabeth: Definitely. [00:25:48] Elana: The last light has always stuck out to me. I shudder to think about that dark day. And now I avoid the campus cafe because this piece was very much inspired by real life. And it just speaks me. It really speaks to me. [00:26:04] Elizabeth: I love it. It's so great. And you and I talked about this before. I don't want to take us too far down this rabbit hole, but this so much reminds me of one of my favorite authors. We both love this author, Shel Silverstein. As children, we both read Shel Silverstein. And this has, like, the playfulness and the intelligence, I feel like, of a Shel Silverstein poem. I mean, some of his poems were definitely written for children, but some were very adult theme. And this is like, yeah, I feel like this writer is falling in the brilliant footsteps of great authors. Like you mentioned Shel Silverstein before, but also Doctor Seuss. There's, like, deep meaning inside of the playfulness today. [00:26:48] Elana: The part that really stuck out to me was this one of the beginning stanzas here. I'd left my devices back in my dorm, needing a break and to drink something warm, preferring to study alone. Instead, I. People watched and had coffee with bread. Very simple line. [00:27:05] Elizabeth: I love that. And it really. It is an important line because it sets up how the narrator escapes from the doom that affects everyone else. So this leads me to. These are the questions we ask all of our writers. And we can never talk about this stuff enough because, as we know, writing is. Well, it's so magical and so fun and so cathartic. It's also hard and can be frustrating and difficult sometimes. In fact, there's a great quote about writing is difficult for everyone, but especially writers. So I wanted to ask for your. Well, first, talking about process. So could you talk a little bit about the process of writing this piece, how you got your inspiration? And then were there moments, like, in the process of writing it, I'm sure you had many revisions, as I have as well. When I write where you got, you felt like you were stuck, where you were discouraged, and then how you worked through it. How did you finish it? Or was the whole thing. Did it just kind of, like, pour out of you shockingly quick? What was it like, the process of writing it? [00:28:10] Elana: So with this particular contest, it's interesting because they give you a genre, an emotion, and a theme that you have to convey through the piece. For this one, it was Sci-Fi was the genre. The theme was self-indulgence, and the emotion was discouraged. So I was like, oh, my goodness, how combined these three things. And I had eight days to do it. The first round, you have eight days. The second round, you have like, four. And the final round, you. Two days. [00:28:48] Elizabeth: Wow. [00:28:49] Elana: So for the first five or six days, I was panicking, and I could not think of what to write. And every time I sat down to write, I would, like, get an idea and maybe open my phone to do research or hop on my laptop to do research for the writing. And the next thing I knew, I had been sucked into this black hole of, like. And so it was a Friday morning. I was working at Berkeley City College in the writing workshop, and I was telling my colleague about this experience and how frustrated I was because I love this competition. It was my second year trying it, and I just really wanted to submit a good piece. And he went, what? You should write about that. [00:29:31] Elizabeth: Nice. [00:29:32] Elana: So, yeah, you should write it about being sucked into your phone. I was like, well, yeah, I guess I could. [00:29:45] Elizabeth: I did not realize that's what the prompt was. That is tough. I cannot imagine what I would. I don't think I could come up with something that fit those three requirements. And what's so cool is what you were saying. Everybody experiences getting sucked into their phone, but this writer made it so fresh, unique. I've never heard this story told before, even though we all have the experience of being sucked in our phones. So it's a completely original take as you were writing it. Once you got that idea, and it's really worth noting that sometimes just a random person who's sitting beside you can give you an idea, we can get random ideas anywhere. You got that idea, you started working on it, and then what was the process of actually getting it written? How did that go? [00:30:35] Elana: For this piece, it was relatively easy. I wrote at a cafe near UC Berkeley. That's a very late night cafe. Growing up in the Bay area is mostly in Berkeley. I've done a lot of my writing in late night cafes. Most of them, sadly, are not open anymore, but one remains, and I was surrounded by students. It was about. It was around October, so it was about the time of midterms, and people looked super stressed, and I was trying to write this piece. [00:31:07] Elizabeth: Yeah. [00:31:08] Elana: And so that's when the idea kind of just started all flowing out of me, and I got it done pretty quickly, and then spent the next couple of days just revising and tightening things up, you know, with rhyming stories, especially when I'm writing them. Sometimes I just write out the first rhyme that comes to mind, and then I'll go back later and adjust it just to, like, you know, hold the meaning of what I'm trying to say, or even just to come up with a pair of rhyming words to use later. So with rhyming stories, the process can be a little different. And with a contest, the process could be different. This competition, I spent the first 30 hours or so writing one story, and then I panicked 4 hours before the submission deadline and scrapped it and wrote something new. [00:32:00] Elizabeth: Wow. Wow. That actually is consistent, though, with most writing practices. And I remember, I think it was something written by Annie Dillard that I read in my twenties, and I've never forgotten it. She said that for everybody, ten pages of writing an author, you know, spews on any one day one of those pages is usable. And I think we just need to understand and accept this and give ourselves grace for the fact that sometimes you just have to, like, write a bunch of stuff that you're not going to use at all. And it's the process, even if you don't use the thing that you wrote, I think the process of writing something else, like, clears the decks so you can get to that thing that you really need to write. [00:32:44] Elana: Absolutely. You just made me think about this period of time where I thought I wanted to be a photographer. And it was a similar sort of thing where sometimes you shoot 40 shots of something very similar, but it's like you get one or two that are perfect, but every single one of those quote unquote failed shots led you up to that moment. You know, they like, helped you realize more and more what you were trying to capture. [00:33:10] Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah. I think it's so essential. And this is why we just want to keep talking about the creative process as much as possible and talk about it with our young writers, because I think in our culture, because we're so tech focused now, the world of tech, very similar to math, is a very, it's very binary. It's like right versus wrong. It's zeros and ones. You get these, you know, AI is generating these perfect things, perfect in quotes. Reality. The reality of the creative process is that it's messy, it is amorphous, it is trying ten different things to find the one thing that's brilliant. It's like the magic requires messiness, and it requires trial and error, and it requires taking creative risks and following, like, weird, intuitive hunches. And it's beautiful. It's all part of the process. And it's the opposite of being, like, tidy and perfect, but, ugh, tidy and perfect is boring. So I want every child and young person to just feel empowered to be messy, to take to try things, even if they don't work, it's worth trying it because it's going to lead to something else. And I feel like this is a perfect example of that. Which then leads me to the next question, which is just in general, right. Writing in general. We would love your advice and your insights about a couple different things. One is, like, where you get ideas when you're not feeling inspired. Sometimes we have an idea that pops into our head, and it's, like, amazing, and we run with it, but a lot of times, it's like crickets. There's nothing going. So how do you get ideas when you're feeling like you don't have any ideas? And also, how do you deal with the challenges of being in the middle of a piece and maybe losing your momentum on an idea that once seemed great, and then you're like, now, what do I do with it? Or now, where do I go with it? Or now, how do I keep going? So, like before, what is your advice for? To get started. And then when you're in the middle of it, and it's hard so to. [00:35:24] Elana: Get started, I feel like I really do just get ideas from so many places. Often it is talking to a friend. Sometimes it's something I'll see in the world. Memories are a really big source of inspiration. Like I said before, I love writing memoir. I think that's because I've always loved journaling. That's what got me started, is my mom handing me a journal and being like, please write some instead of allowed. So I love memoir. But also I found that, you know, I think we all have memories that are really, really hard to talk about and even to just, like, remember at all. And with those memories, I try to use those, especially as a source of inspiration and fictionalize them. When I applied to San Francisco state, they are one of the few MFA programs in the country that has a creative nonfiction department, which is very, very cool. And I always thought that's what I would apply to. But over the past few years with my own creative nonfiction writing, I found that it's much easier to remove myself from some stories almost in the same way that we remove writers from the writing with our feedback. Like, if I take myself out of some of these hard to talk about, hard to remember stories and memories, then it's much easier to write about them and process them. And that can be a source of inspiration for things that can relate to so many people because so many of us have these shared, difficult experiences that we can't or don't want to or afraid of talking about. So that's a big place for sure. It's just fictionalizing real life things. [00:37:19] Elizabeth: And I want to just quickly shout out to acknowledge the fact that you have been accepted into the MFA program at SF State, which is amazing. You're so brilliant. And also, to your point about writing about trauma, there's been so much research. I'm so inspired by the scientific research that validates what we've kind of intuitively already known, which is that. That writing about one's experiences, especially traumatic experiences, whether you use fiction or nonfiction. But usually fiction is much easier. But however you write about trauma, it is the single most effective healing modality. And it's because we take the chaos and the pain of actual life, and we form it into a narrative. And as soon as it literally moves in the brain, it goes from the back part of your brain, where it's just like, raw emotion and pain. The moment we put words to it and structure it in a story, it actually shifts. They found this to your frontal lobe, where it then becomes a story, and the body can then process it and handle it in a way that it was maybe unbearable before. So I love how you just intuitively figured out how to do, you know, have your own healing through writing. So, so powerful. Okay, sorry. Keep going. Talk us. Talk more about then once you start writing, do you ever get stuck? I often get stuck in the middle of something. Like, I got so excited at the beginning, and then it's like. And I lose my direction. What do you do in that? [00:38:56] Elana: My manuscript for San Francisco state has two pieces in it that were unfinished, and I think he even made a little note on them, like, these are in progress. I'll probably get back to them later. There's one that's a novel I'm working on that's a fictionalized memoir, and another one is this epic poem for children. Sounds a little ridiculous when I describe it aloud. Not going to give too many details away, because I'm pretty excited and confident about it. But both of them I've been working on for years. The poem, since, like, 2018, probably. But the idea started in 2012. Wow. And this novel, I've tried to write it so many times, first as a memoir, and now finally, recently, I fictionalized it, and it's been moving a lot further along. But still, I think I read part of it in a writing group with you. [00:39:54] Elizabeth: Oh, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. [00:39:59] Elana: Haven't worked on it much since… But in the meantime, when I'm not working on one thing. I just don't stop writing. Like, just because I lose inspiration for one piece doesn't mean I'm like, oh, well, I guess I'll just take a break from, right? No. The best advice I always give people is don't stop writing. Even if you just, like, write a little bit about how your day went every single day. There was this one Instagram account in the early days of, like, getting on Instagram. I remember that it was this guy who posted pictures of these memo pads. You make lists on every day. Does that sound familiar to you? It's. [00:40:37] Elizabeth: I don't know it, but it sounds awesome. [00:40:39] Elana: Yeah, it was this guy who started this product, a writer, where as his writing warm up, every single morning, he would write a list of ten things, and it was like, a new list of ten things every day. Ten things are in my apartment. Ten things I want to do before I die. Ten things I hate about Mondays. And he write these lists, and he ended up with, like, memo pads all over his apartment. And he started posting them on Instagram because he was like, you know, this was a project I started just to kind of keep me going as a writer and because I was depressed and I needed something, and then I realized that it's kind of funny and it's inspiring and it might help somebody else and. [00:41:16] Elizabeth: Wow. [00:41:17] Elana: Yeah. So I think there's just so many ways to. [00:41:19] Elizabeth: I love that. [00:41:21] Elana: And, I mean, I'm sure that project of his could have been, if it hasn't already been, inspiration for a bigger writing project. And so that gets rolling by never letting it stop. [00:41:34] Elizabeth: I love that. I think that's really the best advice, and that is kind of what we. Without even talking about it, this is what happens in our classes, because you come every week and you have to keep writing, whether or not you're working on a much larger story in process, or you started a great story and you got stuck. It doesn't matter. We just keep writing, keep coming back to it, start something new. If you're stuck, keep going on the other thing. Take it in a weird direction. I think it's so important, actually, the book that I'm always talking about, and I'm going to talk about it again, is your brain on art. It's the best book about the science behind the power of creative expression. And they have found, scientifically, they have proven, proven that creative expression, especially writing, wink, wink. Creative expression is as vital to our mental health, mental and physical health, as daily exercise, and that we need to do it daily, because everything in our body recalibrates when we take that time to sit and just try to be creative and, like, generate something, and it doesn't even matter. I think we really have to. I want to encourage everyone to let go of ideas of perfection or being famous or being. Getting awards, and just enjoy the process of writing because it is its own reward. Like, even when you get started on an idea that you're excited about, that is the best feeling. And then if it turns out to be weird or you're not going to keep going with it, or you have to take a break from it, that doesn't matter. Also, I think it's cool what you said about t taking time away from stuff, and I do think that I know this in scientifically. It's been proven that our intuition continues to process things even when we're not thinking about it. So while we go off and live life and do other things, our intuition is like a slow cooker. It's just constantly in the background percolating. And I've heard so many writers talk about this that they jot down an idea. They don't know what to do with it. They put it in a box, and then years later, they see a tree or talk to a person or see a sign on the road. Something triggers that original idea that was back in the box, and they see a connection, and all of a sudden, they have this genius idea that becomes something enormous. So you just don't know what something is going to become. And it's more just like enjoying, enjoying coming up with ideas and trying stuff. I think that's what you're saying. It's just keep trying stuff. [00:44:09] Elana: Yeah, absolutely. You just got to keep. Keep watering the garden. Lately, we've been having these birds on our deck and I read this article about how crows will bring you money if you feed them. [00:44:25] Elizabeth: Oh, I love that. [00:44:27] Elana: It's attracting a lot of birds. And they started, like, dropping seeds and things. No money yet, but I have noticed odd things growing in my planters on my deck. And I've noticed there's, like, been a peanut was planted. There's a little seed that I think it was starting to grow grass. Yeah. So, like, all kinds of weird stuff that I didn't plant. [00:44:54] Elizabeth: Oh, my God. [00:44:56] Elana: Who knows? Maybe a money tree will grow after a while, if I keep leaving the breadcrumbs out. [00:45:04] Elizabeth: Wow. Okay. That I feel like you need to write about that, a story about that, because that is such. Well, you could take this in a million different directions, but if nothing else, it's a parable about just letting everything become what it needs to be, giving space for things to happen and, like, serendipity and magic and, you know, crows planting peanuts. That's so awesome. [00:45:30] Elana: Yeah, the peanuts in my pocket. [00:45:33] Elizabeth: I love that. [00:45:34] Elana: I don’t want people to think that you don't pay me enough, because you do. [00:45:40] Elizabeth: Living in the Bay area, you need a lot of peanuts. Yeah, we know that… Maybe we could hire crows to help us start a peanut farm for both. That would be amazing. Okay, so this has been so helpful. And now I would like, because you do specialize, you're so good with kids. Again, I wish I had known you when I was a kid. What advice do you generally, because I'm sure it comes up a lot in class where kids are like, I don't know what to write. That happens. I hear it. Everybody says that. Everybody feels that. What advice do you give to your students when they don't know what to write? [00:46:20] Elana: I like to tell them to write about their day, you know, to think, because I'm a little biased. That's what's always helped me. But I think that if you just start writing about your day, like, there's so many things that can go from there, you know, you can write about what you wish had happened during the day, what you wish hadn't happened during the day, what you dreamed would happen during the day, what you daydreamed would happen. I love that so much of my writing when I was a kid was inspired just by sitting in class and daydreaming about what else I could be. [00:46:51] Elizabeth: By the way, I just read an article that they have realized that kids who daydream are actually creatively brilliant and should be encouraged to daydream. And that daydreaming is actually creativity in action. So we should all be daydreaming more often. And that's. I love that. That's a great, great advice. God, I wish somebody had asked me that when I was a kid. Write about what you were daydreaming today. I would have had so much to say about that. [00:47:24] Elana: Right. Write about what you were thinking. [00:47:28] Elizabeth: Right. [00:47:30] Elana: Oh, my God. [00:47:31] Elizabeth: That was. I still can feel, like, the panic in my heart, like, you're totally off in the clouds, and then all of a sudden, you hear your name being called, and the teacher wants you to answer a question, and you have no idea what the question was. [00:47:44] Elana: I have memories of, I had this one teacher who, the way she said my name, Elana, she would more say, like, a lot of. And then she would say a lot of. And so every time I dream, and I would hear her say a lot of it was never me, it was just her poor enunciation skills. [00:48:07] Elizabeth: Oh, my God, that's so anxiety producing. [00:48:10] Elana: Yeah. [00:48:11] Elizabeth: School is not, doesn't always encourage creativity, but you do encourage creativity. Your classes are so fun, and I've heard already from so many of your parents have been like, my child comes home and they want to keep writing, or they write on the weekends, or they share their story with me. Like, I think that's always the sign of a great writing class, is you want to keep writing. So I think you are an amazing writing-encourager and writing inspire. [00:48:43] Elana: Thank you. [00:48:45] Elizabeth: Okay, so my last question is, again, because you work with young people, what advice? Or what would you say to your seven year old self who wrote that amazing story that we started with? What would you tell her after she told that story, if you could give her some advice or encouragement? [00:49:05] Elana: Oh, my goodness. I feel like I should open it up and get some AWA feedback going. [00:49:10] Elizabeth: Oh, yeah. [00:49:13] Elana: Okay. I would encourage her to just always keep writing. I would remind her that you are a writer. You should write. My favorite quote is the Langston Hughes one, that “the only prerequisite for writing is having something to say.” And clearly, kid, you've got something to say. Keep saying it. Keep writing it down. [00:49:38] Elizabeth: Oh, I love that. That is great advice for everyone. And, of course, we believe everyone is a writer. Everyone has something to say, everyone has stories to tell, and we don't. We think that writing is some sort of magical, special thing or some really complicated thing. And it's just, we say that talking is writing on the air, so actually writing is talking on paper. And if you can talk, you can tell your story anywhere, including on paper. And I hope that every young person gets to write with you at some point because you're so inspiring. And can you imagine if we had an army of young people all confidently writing powerful stories that were, like, changing the world? That could happen. And you could help lead that little army of creative writers. [00:50:27] Elana: That would be beautiful. Yeah, I'd love to have my own army. That'd be fun. [00:50:36] Elizabeth: I love that. Thank you so much for taking your time to be with us today. Elana, you are a delight. And I'm so honored to work with you every day. [00:50:46] Elana: Thank you for having me. I am honored to work with you. Being a part of the Intuitive Writing Project is just a dream come true. [00:50:54] Elizabeth: We dreamed each other into being. Thank you so much. Bye.