Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of The Intuitive Writing Project, a writing based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.
For a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program eleven years ago because it's what I wanted and needed when I was young. A supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That's why we use The Amherst Writing Method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst Method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and with Others. But the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Number two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And number three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed in our classes. Everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded, positive feedback. By that I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases or concepts that really resonated for us since we can't violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there. These one on one or three people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our and read our students words as they were published on our blog, The Intuitive Voice, with the link below. If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It's pretty life changing and there is a lot more I could say about it, but I'll let these young writers speak for themselves.
On behalf of all the writers at The Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices, for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight and brilliance of young people today. I am so happy and honored and excited to be talking with our very own Ali Kirk. Ali is going to be reading her piece called The Forest, and I would like to begin by having Ali introduce herself. If you would give us your preferred name, your pronouns, how long you've been writing with us, and if you can, some kind of little anecdote from childhood or middle school. Like one of your first memories of writing.
[00:03:19] Aly: Okay, so I'm Aly, I use she/her pronouns, and I feel like one of my first memories was I wrote about a trip to New York with my mom in 6th grade and my teacher ended up telling the class how good it was, which just made me feel amazing.
I always loved it when teachers would say that they liked my writing. It was just validating.
[00:03:47] Elizabeth: That is beautiful. And I want to mention also, because we talked about this before, that you and one of our last interviewees, Kayli, wrote together in middle school. What grade was that? When you guys wrote together?
[00:04:07] Aly: Yeah, that was 8th grade. We did a lot of writing in our 8th grade English class.
We would go sit outside together and read back and forth to each other and ask each other's opinions.
[00:04:21] Elizabeth: Oh my God. You had like a little mini Intuitive Writing Project.
[00:04:26] Aly: Yeah.
[00:04:28] Elizabeth: Did anyone else do it with you?
[00:04:30] Aly: No.
I feel like a lot of the people in our class weren't super into writing.
[00:04:38] Elizabeth: Okay. That is the magical story, and that is true in life. I don't know what no one's ever done a survey, but I feel like the percentage of people who really love writing right out of the gate is probably pretty small. And that's why I just love hearing that story. That's the sweetest story that you guys had together, that you had the idea you initiated the idea to write and share writing.
That's so magical. And I have to give you credit because you were the one who told Kayli about us. And Kayli said in her interview that when she heard you recommend this program, she knew she could trust you because you were such a great writing companion. Like anything you would recommend with writing, she was going to try it. So thank you.
And then you two wrote with us. Was it two years or three years? What grade were you in when you started?
[00:05:35] Aly: Right, I started my freshman year, so this would be like five years.
[00:05:43] Elizabeth: Five years. That's amazing.
[00:05:45] Aly: Four or five.
[00:05:46] Elizabeth: That's so cool. I love just thinking about when you're in your first class and what you wrote about then and how your writing has evolved and all the things you've covered, like the pandemic. We talked about that the other day.
It was over a year and a half online, and you were such a trooper.
You had no choice.
[00:06:09] Aly: It was so hard to write during that time.
[00:06:13] Elizabeth: It was, although I'm trying to remember.
So this piece I'm going to have you read, it's just so incredible. It's definitely a throwback. It's from December 6, 2021. So I think we had just gotten out of shelter in place. I think you guys went back to school that fall, but it was definitely like everybody was still kind of depressed, I think it had been, like, such a long time. So this piece, The Forest, is just completely magical and very profound. So I'm going to just have you read it to us, and then I will share what I love about it. And for those who are listening, you can follow along by clicking on the link to the piece that is posted on our blog, intuitive Voice. All right, Ali. Go ahead.
[00:07:07] Aly: I feel the moss beneath my feet, between my toes. It's squishy, soft, cool, like the pillow I turn over as I fall asleep. I'm alone, but I'm not lonely. The trees whisper me secrets in the wind. I feel like I belong, like the trees and the stars are welcoming me home. The moon gives the path in front of me. A glow beckoning me deeper into the forest. I hear an owl, a rustling, not far away. But it doesn't scare me. Tonight, a deer enters my path. She turns to look at me, and her eyes lock. We both stop in our tracks, observing each other. And then she continues on, walking, approving my presence. She trusts me. I keep moving deeper into the forest until I pause. I feel like this exact spot is where I need to be right now. So I lie down on the path and look up at the sky. The trees part to let me see the stars. They cover the sky like sprinkles on a toddler's sugar cookie. I think about how I'm looking back in time, how a lot of these stars have probably died by now. But their light is still reaching me. I shed a tear. I let it trickle down my cheek, feel it turn from warm to cold. For a split second. I feel silly for crying and laugh at myself. But the feeling passes in their silence. I start wondering if I will leave flight when I die. Will people still see my beauty years after I have passed? Will they come across a letter I wrote and shed a tear of their own?
[00:08:36] Elizabeth: That's so beautiful.
I always say this, but it's so true. As powerful it is as it is to read it on the page, it's so much more powerful to hear it in your own voice. And, oh, my God, this is such an incredible much there's so many layers of meaning in this, despite how simply it is written. And I feel like this is one of your gifts, Ali, is you are able to say so much in a concise amount of words, which is really hard.
It would take me ten pages to say what you said here, because I'm really bad at being concise. But you just said it like there isn't a single extraneous word. Every word has got layers of meaning to it. Every sentence is perfect. It's incredible. So, okay, just a couple of things. First of all, I love how this is something again, you're also really good at is having simple sentences that feel poetic, even though this is a narrative piece. Like the very first few lines, I feel the moss beneath my feet, period. Between my toes, period. It's squishy, period. Soft, period, cool. Like the pillow, I turn over as I fall asleep, period. I'm alone, but I'm not lonely. This is a poem. It could so easily like the periods could be line breaks and it would be a poem. But you are really good at writing narrative stories that are poetic.
It's really incredible.
[00:10:15] Aly: Yeah, I feel like most of my writing is kind of narrative based or, I don't know, like a story.
[00:10:23] Elizabeth: Yeah, I think most of my pieces.
[00:10:25] Aly: Are definitely short, too.
[00:10:26] Elizabeth: Yes. Which, by the way, I know we've talked about this, but that is essential skill for screenwriting, which I know is something you're going to be doing in life screenwriting. You cannot have a bunch of blah, blah, blah. It's got to be like concise to the point. Poetic, if possible, but concise is the most important thing. And so I feel like it's the filmmaker in you also very visual. Like, all these descriptions. I feel like it's almost I always feel like this with your piece, that it's almost like your words are the camera panning and we're getting to see the things that you're showing us.
The moon gives the path in front of me a glow. I love that. And then there's sounds. I hear an owl, a rustling not far away. The deer enters my path. This is where it starts to feel like this whole piece has a sort of Artemis vibe. She's like my favorite Greek goddess, Artemis, because she's the one who runs through the woods in the moonlight with her stags. And she's also responsible for she's like the goddess of children, the goddess of young women. She's very, like a protective goddess, but she's sort of a warrior, and she's super connected to the earth. She's like, goddess of earth. And this feels like Artemis, in a way, going through the forest because of the way the writer describes feeling so at peace and one with the mean. I've never done this in my life, but every time I read this poem, I'm like, I want to go do this tonight. I want to go walk in the woods and lay down on a path and look up at the sky in the woods at night in the moonlight. That sounds amazing.
Have you done that by any chance?
[00:12:20] Aly: Like, laid in a I feel like I haven't been to that many forests, honestly, so not really. But I would like to I've walked at night before, for sure. But I don't know. I feel like there aren't that many forests near us. I mean, that's not true.
[00:12:40] Elizabeth: There are you know what is and this is why this has an Artemis feel to this piece, is like, as women, we are told, never go outside. Certainly not into a forest after dark. That's like you're asking for trouble if you do that, which is so stupid because that's when I would love to go to the forest. I would love to go for a night.
But that's something that Artemis did.
[00:13:09] Aly: Yeah.
This past year, the campus that I lived on was, like, kind of a more naturey campus. So I liked walking around there at night. And it was also, like, a safer campus, so it didn't really feel, like, scary to walk there at night either.
Very quiet. And there were actually a lot of deer.
[00:13:29] Elizabeth: What? OMG, so this piece was like a presentiment of what was to come in your future.
[00:13:36] Aly: Oh, my pictures of deer where they kind of look like they're.
[00:13:44] Elizabeth: Send me that. OMG and just because it's super impressive. Tell people where you go to college.
[00:13:51] Aly: I go to Rutgers. Part of the Mason Gross School of the Arts.
[00:13:56] Elizabeth: That's so awesome. And you're studying film, right? Yes. I'm so proud of you.
Yeah. So that's interesting. You wrote about something before you had fully experienced it, but you imagined it. I mean, you've imagined it as if that you've already experienced it. Also. It definitely has magical realism vibes to it because it's like reality, but heightened. Like how once the narrator lies down the trees part to let her see the stars.
I love the description of the sprinkles, like a toddler sugar cookie. And then it gets really metaphysical, that whole idea of, and this is so deep, and I have to remember this next time I look at stars, that when you're looking at stars, you're looking back in time. I love this line, how a lot of these stars have probably died by now but their light is still reaching me, which is true. And also, like, mind blowing and profound and deep. And I love you brought that in. And that leads to this really emotional turn of the piece and the most amazing ending. That question of I start wondering if I will leave light when I die.
[00:15:14] Aly: That's beautiful.
[00:15:15] Elizabeth: Will people still see my beauty years after I have passed? And then this final line, which is such a writer line will they come across a letter I wrote and shed a tear of their own?
What I love about this is the idea as writers that, like stars, the way that we leave our light behind is through what we've written.
[00:15:38] Aly: Yeah.
[00:15:39] Elizabeth: That is so beautiful.
[00:15:41] Aly: Oh, my God.
[00:15:42] Elizabeth: I think I did. When you read this in class the first time, I got choked up.
There's even tears in the piece. Like, for a split second, I feel silly for crying and I laugh at myself and the feeling passes and there's silence. The silence is the profundity. It's just like the mystery and enormity of the universe is such that there aren't even words for it. You just are silently being alive in this universe full of magic.
Okay, so all I have to ask you, I know now, we talked a little bit. You hadn't actually had this experience before you wrote it, but do you remember what oh, my God. I know I always give you guys crazy prompts and then I'm like, but write whatever you want. Do you remember when you started if you knew you were going to write about the forest or if it was like an unexpected evolution, like you started writing something else and then this happened?
[00:16:49] Aly: I honestly do not remember, but I feel like a lot of my pieces kind of have a nature theme to them.
I don't know.
[00:17:00] Elizabeth: I think they do.
[00:17:01] Aly: I absolutely say that kind of prompted it. I'm sure it was one of your prompts.
[00:17:08] Elizabeth: We did have a lot of nature. Oh, thank you. Well, you guys are incredible. In your class in particular would always write so powerfully about nature, and we talked about that. It's not just us, it has been written about by many people. Like, there's a whole study called Ecofeminism, which is the connection between women and nature and how we do generally, because of our biology, because of everything, have this sort of deep emotional connection to the Earth. And I do think you write about it eloquently.
But this piece, when you were writing it, I know it's a long time ago, but do you remember feeling how it felt to write it? Like, did you feel like, oh my God, you were in your imagination, you had gone there and you felt totally Zen-ed out? Or was it a struggle? Did you get stuck at all?
[00:18:06] Aly: I'm sure I got stuck at some point because I feel like, I don't know, I always get a little bit stuck at some point. But yeah, I remember kind of visualizing it. I feel like most of my writing is like I'm kind of visualizing something and then I'm trying to put it into words.
[00:18:24] Elizabeth: That's so interesting. And I also then wanted to ask that segues to the next question and really the final the big meta question.
And I know you struggled with it just like I do, just like everyone does. What advice would you give to other young writers when they get stuck?
I can say for myself. I get stuck on a regular basis. Sometimes I'm super excited about an idea I have and I start writing it and then I'm like, this is stupid. Or I can't even come up with an idea because I'm just like blank. So what have you done in the past to keep going? And what advice would you give?
[00:19:08] Aly: Well, I feel like in art classes, whenever I didn't know what to write, I would kind of just turn to one of your prompts and go with one of those. I also feel like a repetition or like the five senses.
[00:19:26] Elizabeth: That's a good one. That's a really good one. Yeah.
[00:19:31] Aly: I also feel like writing letters is somehow easier for me. I feel like when I'm writing, when I did that letter to my past self, I feel like I never got stuck. I feel like that was pretty easy for me to write.
[00:19:51] Elizabeth: That's interesting. That's really good advice. And I think, again, the reason for the repetition pieces and the letters is it's kind of what we and again, I'm just speaking of women historically in Western culture, what we've had to do over and over is communicate with each other.
Once writing emerged, we would write letters and then make lists.
I just imagine the earliest women pre-history women, like indigenous tribal women, they didn't have writing at that time, but they would have, in their head, been making, I got to get berries, I got to get nuts, I got to get that thing to repair the yurt, I got to get the stuff for the baby. Like, women have so many things they have to do that we're really good at, making lists. So I think that the repetition piece is really good because it's like a list. And then I love what you said about writing a letter. Writing a letter is what you do every time you talk to a friend. It's a letter written on the air. It's a letter you're speaking out loud. But I think it's a more natural way of it's what you do all the time when you talk to people. Yeah, I think that's great, and I.
[00:21:09] Aly: Think like, an easier form of communication.
[00:21:12] Elizabeth: Yeah.
And that brings up the last thing that you totally set this up perfectly. This is something that so many people oh, my God. Probably, again, that's like what we talked about earlier, the percentage of people who actually love writing and feel good about it versus the percentage who hate it or they feel like they can't do it. So many people say they can't write and they're not good at it. I mean, it feels like a very high number. Like, at least 80% of people say they can't write. And what I always say, of course, is our philosophy, the Amherst Writing Method, is that everyone is a writer because we're human and we tell stories. We're all storytellers. And I think that writing is kind of a loaded topic because of English class and rules of grammar and rules of essay construction and all this stuff that makes it hard.
I don't think I could write the kind of essays you guys were expected to write in high school because it's like a math puzzle. It's, like, so analytical.
So because of that, many people think they can't write. So I just wanted your thoughts on how writing this kind of writing, not essay writing, opposite how this kind of writing, how you think about it in terms of just like it's just a form of telling stories or how do you think of writing in your head so that you don't get caught on all those rules of essays and stuff?
[00:22:56] Aly: Well, I feel like I think of creative writing as a totally separate thing from, I don't know, structured writing, because I haven't liked a lot of my English classes in the past when they make us stick to all of these rules or, I don't know, make it so bland and cut and dry.
[00:23:23] Elizabeth: Right.
[00:23:23] Aly: But I feel like for people who think that they aren't good writers, I think most people who don't think that they're as good at writing are better at having talking person to person.
So I think in that case, imagining a conversation and just almost writing a conversation would be great for them.
[00:23:48] Elizabeth: That's brilliant. Which gets back to what you said about writing a letter, because a letter is like part of a conversation.
I mean, especially what's great about a letter, you write to yourself. I love writing letter to my younger self or my future older self. Writing a letter to my present self is it is a conversation because it's you and yourself. There are, like, two beings involved. So it's a back and forth. But yeah, even just writing a letter of what you wish you could say to somebody, and you imagine that person receiving that letter, even if you never send it to them, it helps make it feel it's just a conversation.
Yeah.
Okay. That's great. I think that is really the big and if anyone ever asks you about this, you can go around and tell people, just write a letter.
Because I think I would like everyone, because writing I mean, we have AI, of course, which is super annoying, and that's a whole other conversation. But AI, as many people who are writers and artists have pointed out, AI does not have a soul. AI does not have trauma. AI doesn't have childhood memories. So we're always going to need real humans to write real stories, and we need more people feeling that they can write. Because, honestly, as you and I talk about all the time, and I'll close with this, you and I always talk about movies and TV shows that we love and how frustrating it is that it's hard to find. There's always periods where it's like there's nothing super creative and cool happening.
There is a lack of really innovative storytelling. There's always room for more. We always need more creative stories.
I want more people to be writing, especially girls, gender, expansive youth, minorities, because those are the voices that we're still not getting as much of. I don't know if you learned this in school, if you've talked about this, but it's still a really low percentage of women. Screenwriters.
[00:25:59] Aly: Yeah.
[00:26:01] Elizabeth: What did you learn about that?
[00:26:05] Aly: Just, like, looking at the industry, it's like, pretty much all men.
[00:26:09] Elizabeth: Yeah.
[00:26:11] Aly: Even in my classes, it's like majority men, really. Which makes me kind of wonder, was it that less women applied to be in the film program or that they took more men?
[00:26:28] Elizabeth: Okay, you might need to do a documentary about that. That's an interesting question. My gut feeling is probably fewer women applied. And I think it goes back to all of there's a lot of stuff involved in that. Partly girls are now more expected to choose more, quote, high earning careers. And anything can be high earning. By the way, we've talked about that. You can make good money doing anything, but maybe they're more pressured to go into Stem or finance or something. Like, look at Greta Gerwig.
I don't know what she told her parents when she went off to college or what her parents thought when she was like, I'm going to get into film if they said you'll never make any money. But look at her now. She's doing very yeah, I would love if you ever wanted to do research, this would be an interesting a film about why there aren't more women in film.
[00:27:46] Aly: I feel like there are more women in art classes, like painting and drawing. But then if you look at film and it's like there aren't as many.
[00:28:01] Elizabeth: That is interesting. Then it's not about a lucrative I think it's confidence then, which goes back to your formative experience with Kayli in middle school, how you guys would sit and share stories with each other and appreciate each other's stories. I think that I definitely felt like that. I also studied film in college, but I didn't have the confidence or the connections to do anything with it. I didn't know how to do anything with it. Actually. I loved it, but I couldn't figure out how to make it a job. And I think if you have as a woman in any profession that's male dominated, which is most of them, you really need to believe in your own voice.
And I think that's what you and Kayli started. That like believing that your stories are they matter. And of course, that's the whole point of the intuitive writing project, is to remind you that your stories matter and you do have something important to tell the world. You have important creative ideas and maybe that's what's missing. Girls don't get that message.
[00:29:16] Aly: I also feel like that's why teachers are so important. I will shout out Ms. Huckins, our 8th grade teacher, she really encouraged our writing in 8th grade. She loved that we would work.
[00:29:29] Elizabeth: Oh, that's so awesome. That makes all the difference. Yeah. Having somebody affirm you and say that, yeah, that is good. You do have talent. Keep going. Well, I'm so happy you are doing what you're doing now. We have very similar tastes in movies, except I have a lower threshold for horror. You have a higher threshold, but beyond that we have very similar tastes. So I can't wait to see at some point your senior year, I think you're going to have to generate a film, right? A short film.
[00:30:05] Aly: We actually do short films every year, so I'll have to have one. We have a showcase every year.
[00:30:12] Elizabeth: Okay.
[00:30:13] Aly: And the sophomore showcase is in December, I think. Okay. In the next few months you're going.
[00:30:21] Elizabeth: To have a oh my God. That's exciting. So, yeah, just keep sending me stuff. I am so excited to see you out in the world being a creative storyteller. And someday future generations of girls will be standing in line, just like the girls did a couple of weeks ago to see Greta Gerwig's film, but they'll be standing in line to see your film. Whatever. It's going to be awesome. I'll be in line, too. Yeah. I'm so honored that you were able to write with us all this time. I'm so honored and grateful for all the years of brilliance you shared. And also, you're so fun to talk to. You always have the best insights for our class conversations.
[00:31:09] Aly: So very grateful for The Intuitive Writing Project. It definitely helped me a lot.
[00:31:15] Elizabeth: I'm so happy for all of our time we got to spend together, including we had got to write some this summer with the Gold gang, which was so great. Oh, my God. Well, thank you so much, Aly, for your time.
[00:31:26] Aly: Thank you.
