Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth.
My name is Elizabeth Perlman and I created this organization twelve years ago because it was what I wanted and needed when I was young, a safe, supportive space to speak my truth and have it heard. Since the girl inside of us is always needing to speak and be heard. We also have writing classes for women and this podcast will feature one of my favorite Gen X writers. If you are a woman who would like to try writing with us, know that the first class is always free. There are so many things we have to do, we want this to be something you choose to do, purely for the joy of it.
Also know that we use the Amherst writing method, one of the most nurturing and empowering writing systems I know of. You can read more about the Amherst writing method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, writing alone and with others, but the basic principles and the ones that guide all our classes. One, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed. As I always tell my students, my hope for you, for everyone on earth, really, is that you always feel empowered to speak your truth and know that it matters.
For today's podcast—incredibly, our 20th podcast!— I am so happy and honored to have a conversation with my beloved friend and mentor, Robbyn Layne, one of the most amazing and inspiring people I know. I first met Robbyn when I was in grad school at JFK University in Berkeley, California, where I was studying Transformative Arts, and she was one of my teachers. She also became my most beloved mentor and advisor. Here's a bit about her background.
Robbyn Lane is a writer, transformative teaching artist, and the founder of Kissing the Muse creative adventures. A copywriter and producer by trade, she moonlights as a messy, magical muse, inspiring and empowering others to embrace their authentic creativity through expressive art making, creative collaborations, learning adventures, and stories. Robbyn is the author of the hybrid memoir mentorship course “Kissing the Muse, a Messy, Magical Creative Adventure,” and the creator of “The Messy, Magical Muse: A Colorful, Creativity-Sparking Card Deck.” She holds an MFA in new practices with a focus on painting and cinema from San Francisco State University and an MA in transpersonal counseling psychology from John F. Kennedy University.
Originally from Kansas City, she followed her heart to San Francisco and left it there for 20 years before transplanting it to Amsterdam in 2014, where she now lives with her British love, a Dutch tuxedo cat, and an Aussie doodle named Ziggy.
On a personal note, I have to say, I always marvel at our geography and how that played into how Robbyn and I met. So, funny story:
Six months before I met Robbyn, I was also living in Amsterdam, but I was very lost and depressed. So I would go for these long walks at night along the canals. Of course, it’s very beautiful and I felt terrible being depressed there. But I was. One night, I was sitting on the bench right in front of the Anne Frank house. Of course, I'm a big fan of Anne Frank. So as I was crying and praying, I was sort of talking to the spirit of Anne Frank, asking her for guidance, because… why not? And some time passed, and then I heard the word so clearly in my head, whether it came from Anne or my own higher self, and it was just… “write.” I felt that Anne Frank told me to write. And then I felt or heard the phrase, “you are a writer.” And this was huge and significant for me because at the time, I was not writing. Part of the reason I started the Intuitive Writing Project is because I have been so disempowered and dis-encouraged in my writing. There have been long periods where I just felt like I was too dumb or had nothing to say. So “hearing” Anne Frank tell me to write and that I am a writer, that shifted everything for me. Of course, I got so excited, I felt like, oh, my God, write. Duh. It's like finding a treasure that's been in your pocket all along. I'd always loved writing, but I suppressed it. So six months later, I enrolled in the Transformative Artss program at JFKU, where I met Robbyn, who has now been living in Amsterdam for ten years. So I just think it's fascinating how it's like there's some sort of mystical connection with Amsterdam, and I just have to quickly shout out to Anne Frank, wherever you are, thank you for guiding me. I feel like Anne Frank brought me to you, Robbyn.
Okay, so I'm going to start now. We're going to meet our amazing guest.
We're going to start this conversation the way we start all our podcast conversations, by asking our guests to answer the following three questions. The first one, of course, is what are your pronouns? The second one is… what is your favorite genre of writing? When you can write whatever you want, when you don't have to do it for work or something else? And then the third question, and this is going to be a slightly longer, is… what is your first memory of being really excited about writing or something you have written? So, Robbyn, if you would tell us, tell us your pronouns and your favorite genre.
[00:06:20] Robbyn: Hi. Well, first of all, Elizabeth, it's really great to be here. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.
Yes, my name's Robbyn, and my pronouns are she/her, and my favorite genre of writing is what I call the Free Flow Writing Flirt.
I like to just set a timer for a few minutes. I do this as one of my workshops where we set a timer. We use pen and paper and no scratching or editing out, and we just go and we see what comes out. So that's really my favorite. Cause I usually do that in community, and it also is like, a really great way to trick my head and not get in my own way.
Being someone who likes to play with words and likes to wordsmith them, the Writing Flirt is just a process that I use to get the words on the paper.
And my next favorite genre is also just journaling. I love journaling. It's a great way to just get it out.
And that, I think, can turn into something down the road. But just giving yourself permission to express the truth in your heart, something we all need, which is one of the reasons why I'm such a big fan of the Intuitive Writing Project.
[00:07:34] Elizabeth: Thank you.
[00:07:36] Robbyn: And I guess going back to your third question, when can I remember being really inspired. I was probably in first grade, which means you're like six or seven years old. Maybe I was seven or eight. But I'm pretty sure it was first grade. I got published in the school newspaper. I think we wrote some kind of poem or story. I don't remember the story. I'm sure my mom has it somewhere. But it was called the “Junction Express.” Because our school was called Junction and I was published in it. I mean, I think it was just like a one page. And it also had like, what the school lunches were for the month. But I felt so proud. And I think that was a pretty pivotal moment. I decided to pursue writing.
[00:08:34] Elizabeth: That is the earliest inspiration for writing. Six. That's amazing. I don't even know if I was forming full sentences at that age. That's very precocious. I love it. And not at all surprising. Not at all.
[00:08:51] Robbyn: It's only like three sentences, you know?
[00:08:53] Elizabeth: Do you still have it? Did you keep it?
[00:08:55] Robbyn: I'm sure my mom has it somewhere. I should find it. In fact, check that.
[00:08:59] Elizabeth: That would be amazing. You should put that on your website!
My first thing, I didn't write something until I was eight, and it was a story called “Bloody Murder” and every single word is spelled wrong and it's very violent and dark. So I would always have to ask that question. It's so cool you wrote something. You were published when you were six. This is why you're such an inspiring teacher. You've been doing this for a really long time.
Okay, thank you for that. That's a great introduction. So we're going to go into much more depth in this conversation, because Robbyn's work is very deep and profound, so we're going to go deep. But I was going to start by—we've sort of hinted at her work with Magical, Messy Muse—I wonder if you could just give our listeners sort of a quick overview. Tell us a bit about Kissing the Muse, how you work with people, what you love about the work. Just tell us a little bit about Kissing the Muse.
[00:09:58] Robbyn: Okay. Well, Kissing the Muse is really a metaphor for the idea of connecting intimately with that most deep, creative, personal power that we all have. And I wanted a term, so I named my company that expressed this idea that we are just cultivating a relationship with that part of ourselves. And I think the part that inspires me the most about doing it, Kissing the Muse, is doing it with other people. I love that this practice, this creative practice, allows me to create that intimate connection and see the truth of who I am and bring it out in my creative work. Or I should say play. Creative play is a better way to describe it. But then, when I do it in community, through workshops or courses or through these new resources that I'm now trying to. Well, that I have published that I think that it's about connecting with other people and reminding them and mirroring back to them that they have it, too, because it's really not ours. You know, it's this energy, it's this creative power that comes through each of us uniquely. And I just really want to create the time and space for that to happen.
And because we run around so busy and we forget. And so what I've been fortunate enough to have is a wonderful community of people who also value that time and space for creative reflection. And when I left California, I moved to London first and then to Amsterdam.
I missed my creative community and I would continue this practice of making collages or painting or journaling or whatever method that was working for me at the moment as a way to stay connected to my truth. But also I started doing it with other people that I, you know, in a coffee shop or like someone, a fellow traveler. And it was a way of creating community when I didn't have one with me anymore.
[00:12:03] Elizabeth: It's interesting you say this, and listeners can hear how amazing and inspiring Robbyn is. This is what I got to experience in the Transformative Arts program. Nobody knows what that is so I'm just going to briefly explain Transformative Arts. It can be any art medium. It can be singing, dancing, theater, film, visual arts, writing. It's any sort of creative experience that you have in community, where somebody, the facilitator, which, when I was in school, Robbyn facilitated our creative experiences, and now I do it in the Intuitive Writing Project. We facilitate a safe space so everyone can have their own creative experience. And like Robbyn was saying, it's in community. That's the magic. Because when we're by ourselves, I mean, this is what always happened to me, and I'm sure it happened to you. When we write by ourselves or do anything by ourselves, that inner critic really kicks in, and it's so easy to get discouraged or go into a dark spiral. But when you're in a community and you're being held and everyone is giving you that positive reinforcement, it lifts up the experience so you actually are able to go deeper and learn more. I mean, this is what I experienced when I was with you, Robbyn, and every one of your classes and every one of your workshops, you held the space. So it was so safe. I don't know a better way to say it. I mean, they call it brave space. Or safe space. It just felt like I could be whatever I needed to be and express whatever needed to come out, and it was all valid and it was sacred. And I feel like you're really good at creating that sacred container. And it started…long before JFK. We'll get to that in a minute. But you have definitely carried that on in Messy Magical Muse. Also, I love that it's messy. You and I talk about that. It's so nice to give people permission to be messy, because we are messy. Everybody's messy. Even people who try to be super organized, actually, secretly messy.
So I wanted to ask you to talk more specifically about your Messy Magical Muse deck, which I was so excited to receive. I heard you talk about it. It's been part of everything that you've done with Messy Magical Muse from the beginning. I really feel like it contains the DNA of your entire life, so there's probably a very long story to that. But could you take us, you know, from wherever you want to start the story on how the Messy Magical Muse deck came to be.
[00:14:45] Robbyn: Yeah, that sounds great. I'd love to. Well, you know, let's go back really quick and I promise I won't tell the whole life story about my first writing experience.
I also had my first art making experience when I was in kindergarten, where I actually won the grand prize in an art contest. So I had these two really early experiences of creative expression that were very validating in a public way. I wore a big purple ribbon, and I had just been making a drawing about my dad, about my dad's race car, and it was a red, white and blue painting called what America means to me. That was the theme. And I just made a flag that was red, white and blue.
Anyway, that was like an authentic, creative, expressive experience. It turned into this purple ribbon. And from that moment on, and maybe mixed with that, getting published, I shut down creatively because if it couldn't be good enough to win an award or be published, it wasn't good enough to do. And I think that that is such a message we get over and over and over again in our culture that, like, you aren't a real artist or a real writer until you're published or until you're showing or you're exhibiting. And I didn't feel like I could do that. It's just a really strange twist of a message. But instead of feeling empowered and creative, I felt really scared after that. Like, I peaked at a very early age.
[00:16:21] Elizabeth: Your creative career ended at six!
[00:16:27] Robbyn: And I had such a fear of being a fraud. I felt like I wasn't creative enough. And yet I also really yearned to be creative. I just knew I was a creative person. I wanted to be creative, but I didn't feel like I had the right to be creative. I would have heart palpitations. I couldn't go into an art supply store. I didn't feel like I had a right to be in an art supply store. I didn't apply to art school or anything like that growing up. So I was very much like, you know, this very strange relationship to being an artist and being creative where I really wanted it, and yet I didn't feel like it was mine. And that, I think, is just the foundation to what Kissing the Muse is all about. And so when I finally did move to San Francisco from Kansas City, that to me, was a messy, magical, creative adventure. That was the launch of my life from moving from, you know, the story of who I was, this Kansas farm girl to. Going to California was like, Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz going to the Emerald City, you know?
It was phenomenal, moving to California and such a big eye opener. So this whole metaphor of going on an adventure, a creative adventure, and that's where I met all these amazing artists and people who were just living their life, like, in a completely different way. It was all about finding your voice and expressing yourself authentically. And I got invited to this amazing women group through a total story of synchronicity, because I had just started to remember that feeling of wanting to be an artist because my little cousin had come to town, and we were playing with sculpy clay, and I was like, I remember this. I want to be an artist. And I told a friend of mine that, and she goes, that's so strange. I was just thinking about telling you about this book called the artist's way.
And I was like, that's amazing. I just bought that book because I got a flyer in the mail. And then we went to dinner, and after dinner, we went to a party, and I got invited to join an Artist’s Way group. I mean, the universe works in this really, crazy, messy, magical way. And that opened the door to my relationship to creativity as a spiritual expression of really trusting that there was some force coming through us. And The Artist’s Way was a really pivotal book. And that group of women who we met every week for maybe five years, and we're still in touch, we just had another, like, reunion call last week. So those, that was like, that's the foundation that artists way group was the beginning. The woman who I told you said, I thought of you with the Artist’s Way book, she's the one who introduced me to John F. Kennedy University. She was going to school there for the school of holistic studies. And, you know, at that time, I thought, who gets to do stuff like that? Like, what is that? Programs where, like, you know, they would pretend to be animals and walk around on the beach and, like, that's crazy, you know?
So it planted a seed in my head, and, you know, lots of synchronicity. That's why I call it the messy, magical, creative adventure. Like, life is like that. You start off on one direction and you go somewhere else, but when you move towards the unknown, yeah, that's where the magic happens. And there it's like if you follow that intuitive voice that says, just try. Yes, please. Give it a little space. It opens the door to you know, your life's adventure, and it's usually what is meant to be. I don't know. It's like that acorn, you know, like the whole, the whole oak tree is in an acorn. I mean, we're all like that. We just don't often put ourselves in the right environment to get the nourishment and the nurturing, the sunshine and the nutrients we need to grow into who we really want to become or who we're meant to become.
[00:20:19] Elizabeth: This so inspiring, and I'm so happy that listeners are getting to hear you because you have. This is why Robbyn is so inspiring. I love that you started feeling that it wasn't for you and that you weren't good enough, because I feel like that is the most universal, most universal feeling everyone has. And I blame it on our culture. Our culture presses down, represses, shuts down all the creative instincts in everyone. So I think this is such an important message. And by the way, there's been more and more studies coming out that creativity is not just—this is debunking this hierarchical, this view of creativity is— only for special people. Creativity is for everyone. And they're finding from brain studies and where they hook people up while they're doing something creative, that being creative is as important for our physical and mental health as daily exercise. It is therapeutic, mind, body and soul. So I love that what you do, Robbyn, is you democratize creativity. You make it for everybody. You make it accessible for everyone. And it's just so inviting to know that it's messy and that's okay because it's also magical and it's an adventure.
So your deck, after you went to John F. Kennedy, can you talk a bit about the evolution. You came up with a very specific way of explaining what we all know is the Hero's Journey comes from Joseph Campbell. But then there was the Heroines Journey written by Maureen Murdoch. And then there is a messy magical muse invented by Robbyn Lane, which is an integration and synthesis of many other things. Can you talk about how you sort of, what happened at JFK? What was the process of figuring out what you ultimately came up with? And maybe it was after JFK, but I feel like it started at JFK. How did you conceptualize the hero's journey?
[00:22:28] Robbyn: Well, there was a lot of magic that happened between joining the Artist's Way group and coming to JFK because I was a filmmaker, as well. And in filmmaking, there's a lot of archetypes or tropes in storytelling. And I, you know, so I was learning about all of those things. I had this career as a producer, so I had my foot in the realms of filmmaking, but I was also studying art, and I was into experimental filmmaking, and I made an experimental film while I was in art school that featured the chair of the Transformative Arts program at JFK University, simply because I had met him through my friend Nicole. So it's all about these synchronicities. I went and asked him if I could teach a workshop there, you know, once I graduated from our school. And he goes, how about if you take this job? I said, great. You know, that's magic. That's amazing. That's about listening to my intuition, because I would drive by the school and I would be like, yeah, what if that guy's still teaching there and working there? I should go do a workshop. And I just one day, and I just went. And it opened up this whole amazing chapter of my life. I did the job. I got the job. It was amazing. And I inherited a bunch of courses that someone else had already designed and created. And one of them was called Art, Archetypes and Creative Process.
And, you know, it was cool, but it was very pedantic, I guess, is the word you say. You know, it's, like, all about the art history. And I think that stuff is great, but it's not my thing. I don't know. I mean, I've studied it a little bit in school, but I really care about making art accessible and meaningful and immediate to the person. And it's all about, like, what are you making? What are you doing? So I changed the whole course concept and integrated the idea of the Hero's Journey, which I had learned about while being in the world of filmmaking.
And I thought it really mirrored the whole idea of the creative process. You know, there's the stages of it. And I was also getting a master's degree in Transpersonal Psychology at the time and learned through that program that it was mirroring the process of individuation, which is a Jungian term for when we just become our most authentic self. So I just merged all these concepts together and created a course based on the heroine's journey rather than the hero's journey, because the idea of artists and writers really are going into this internal space. So when I say heroine, I mean, the idea of being feminine is the characteristic of just going internal and quiet and being in it, being with yourself and letting something be nurtured. To grow, rather than going out there and massively slaying dragons and making things happen.
And then I taught the course at JFK over, like, several weekends as a creative adventure, although I don't think I was calling it that at the time. So the course was really amazing. Everybody was coming together. It was not just because of what I taught, but because of the space that it created for people to share and have this incredible transformative experience. Experience putting it on the structure of the heroine's journey, I think because that's an archetypal, universal, mythical journey, everybody. It resonated with everyone. And so I knew I had something that needed to continue, and I decided to write a self-help book based on everything I knew from Transformative Arts. And, of course, as the universe does, when you put an intention like that out there, the universe said, okay, great, you're gonna have to live it then! And my entire life blew up. Yeah. So I decided to embark on my own messy, magical, creative adventure at that point, because the program at JFK closed down.
In my personal life, things totally blew up, and I had nothing left to lose. So I went to Africa because I had started a Transformative Art project called Animals for Africa, which my dear friend Elizabeth also helped me with. We were making stuffed animals to raise funds for vulnerable women and children in Tecumbo village. And that project was really near and dear to my heart. So I continued with that project even though my personal life had just completely, utterly exploded. And while I was in Africa, I met this amazing british doctor while I was on a safari and decided to go to England.
It seems like I'm getting off track, but the truth is, is that in that part of the story, when I went to England, you know, it was really like I was having a dark night of the soul because, like, of course I, you know, I was having a love story, but I was also really needing to find myself again. And I was, you know, under the guise of writing my book, I was also trying to recreate my life. And I started getting this intuition that it wasn't going to be this academic book about Transformative Arts, which is what I was trying to do. It had to be my story. And so in fits and bursts, I started journaling. I started doing the free flow writing flirt, which I wasn't calling it that back then, but just, yeah, processing and writing my own story down. And it felt very scary to think about interweaving my personal story with this heroines journey process from the class.
But I was, you know, kind of doing it here and there, here and there, and, you know, again, not in an ambitious way, because I didn't really have the confidence or the energy. I'd sort of lost my juju because of everything that happened. I just really didn't feel like I could do much.
My sense of agency had really kind of been destroyed because I'd had a plan, I'd had a life. I was doing this thing I thought I was doing, and then it just all seemed to crumble. But it was back to the perfect, you know, stewing ground for the messy, magical muse to be born. Because through that process, I had to live it. I had to live what this deck is about. And this deck is about navigating the cycles of change, navigating your messy, magical, creative adventure of life through the process of using Transformative Arts making methods so that you get that inner guidance, that inner wisdom to see what to do next or to do nothing next. And to have that be okay. It's okay if you're not doing anything, if you don't know what you're doing. It's great when you do. It's great to realize that, like, we're just messy, magical people, like spiritual beings having this human experience. And we need reminders sometimes to check, you know, to check in with ourselves, to say, this is this is absolutely okay. So the last thing I'll say, man, and I know it's really, no matter what I do, it's like, it's hard to, like, not tell the whole story because all these things came together.
[00:29:58] Elizabeth: Everything's connected. I don't think you can tell the story without telling the whole story. So you're doing great.
[00:30:04] Robbyn: And it is connected because it. And it is for everyone else. But, you know, there was a lot that came up. So I was basically writing a memoir then, but it was sort of a memoir and a self-help book that was a guide. And I was really inspired by, you know, I liked that it was a hybrid thing, but I was also, like, slowly starting to get back into this swing of wanting to put something out into the world and like, to validate myself. Right. Which is like, it's at odds with what Kissing the Muse is about in some ways, because it's like, just do it to do it because you love it. But also, I really did want to do something that would validate myself for myself, but also I wanted to bring it to other people. I had always felt like there was something magical in it, and I was expecting experimenting with some of the practices in, like, my little community pub, we would come together and make collages and hang out and have some coffee or a beer. And, like, I was developing this whole process around what Kissing the Muse had been at JFK into this more manageable creative experience.
I also applied to do this book proposal thing, and I was trying to get an agent and all this, and I was advised to take the entire memoir out. And at the time, it really hurt because once again, it just felt like someone was saying, yeah, but your story itself isn't very interesting or your writing is not great. Nobody was actually saying that. But it just felt like, yeah, putting myself into something wasn't important, but I did take the advice and take it out, and that was actually really good because it helped me really fine tune what the messy, magical, creative adventure was and what the uses were that were basically the touch points on that.
Touch points, maybe the plot points, the twists, you know, in that archetypal cycle of change that we all go through. And now I have brought the memoir back in, but that's in the book that isn't published, and we're talking about the deck, so.
[00:32:07] Elizabeth: Right. No, but that's. I feel like the story is so… your story is so important and so pivotal. First of all, it is through our pain and our personal transformation that we can help other people. Our wounds become our… What is it? Our mess becomes our message. I heard that once.
[00:32:27] Robbyn: I've never heard that one before. I love that.
[00:32:29] Elizabeth: That's perfect for the messy, magical deck. But I also am hearing in this story the part—and we're going to talk about this next— the plot point of returning with the elixir, which is part of what I learned this from you in Transformative Arts at JFKU.
It's interesting because we talk about the heroine's journey in all of our classes because it is the underlying structure of all stories, everything from songs to tv shows to movies. This structure is universal, but there are different ways to describe it, and there are different, like, plot points and I had never heard before. I took your class about returning with the elixir, and returning with the elixir is the most important part because you go through this really intense journey, which is what you were talking about, this incredible dark night of the soul, but you don't give up. And because you go through it and you keep fighting and you keep learning and you keep growing, you return to where you started, you return to yourself with wisdom and knowledge, the gift of wisdom and knowledge that you can then share with to inspire other people on their own hero's journey/heroine’s journey. So I feel like the deck is you returning with the elixir. The elixir is your deck.
[00:33:46] Robbyn: That's it. That's what the messy, magical muse is, my elixir. It really is, genuinely. And it really encompasses so many chapters of my life, and it has so many people. You know, I put this out there, but it's a huge collaboration. Like nothing. It took years, right? But at the same time, like, so what? Like, that's as long as it takes. It really does embody, you know, the magic of all these communities that have touched my life, that helped me become more of who I wanted to become, who I needed to become, and I want to do the same thing. It really did start with the artist's way group and Julia Cameron's the artist's way book, and the women in that group that supported me and helped me feel safe for the first time, you know, to really speak my truth. And then, you know, from there, it just became my banner that I, you know, Kissing the Muse is fine. It's just my, you know, it's my religion.
[00:34:51] Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah, no, it was Buddha or Thich Nhat Hanh, one of them that said, “my religion is kindness.” And I feel like I'm in your camp. My religion is, I don't know how I'd say it, creativity or something. Yeah, creative expression. Authentic creative expression. So actually, I wanted to talk about the deck itself. There's so much. Actually, we could spend a whole show just talking about the deck, but I wanted to highlight the 13 muses. If you could just briefly talk about. Just take us through zero to 13, name them, and then just briefly talk about them, because this comes from the archetypes of the hero's journey, but it's so much more, and it comes from just what you were saying, your whole life experience and your own healing process.
[00:35:41] Robbyn: Well, if I could say one piece of advice about it before I dive into that is, you know, when you're writing something, just keep playing with it. Because I was really stuck on the hero's journey, the heroine's journey, like the names of those phases. And I knew I wanted to talk about it, but I was like, gosh, this just feels so dry. I'm trying to explain something, you know, I'm just. And it doesn't feel fun or creative. And I sound like a professor explaining this academic thing, and that doesn't feel inspiring or playful at all. But over time. And I'm not sure what happened or when I… maybe it was by the time I moved to Amsterdam and I started playing around with it more with community, I started making up the muses as expressions of particular points in the hero's journey. So as a metaphor for each phase, I think I already knew. I liked the idea of Kissing the Muse as a metaphor for what the practice was, transformative, alchemical, you know, this cultivating a creative, intimate connection with yourself. And so I was like, well, if we're Kissing the Muse, let's make them all muses.
[00:36:52] Elizabeth: I love that.
[00:36:53] Robbyn: And so what are the phases that you go through in the hero's journey and what's really happening? And what would that muse look like if you were kissing her in that moment for where you're at at that time? So, you know, the first phase of the hero's journey is the ordinary world, right. But I made it your daily dance, and that's going to meet and kiss your home at heart muse. And so really, like, I just went through all twelve phases of, I used the twelve phases from, I can't remember his name. It's Christopher something, and he wrote the Writer's Journey.
Elizabeth: Christopher Vogler!
Robbyn: Yeah, that was it. Because there's other versions of the hero's journey that are longer and more, and there's also Maureen Murdoch heroine’s journey, of course. And so that was also part of it. I wanted to bring in this idea of the feminine rather than the masculine. So, yeah, the first phase is the Home at Heart Muse, the Daily Dance. The second phase is the Creative Call, so you meet the Seducing Siren Muse. The third phase is Critical Resistance. So you meet and kiss your Reluctant Rebel Muse.
The fourth phase is open to learning, and it's the Magical Mentor Muse. And the fifth phase is the Bridge of Engagement, where you meet your Bold Bride Muse. And, you know, people always laugh about that when I'm talking about it. I had somebody say, I'm gonna have my Bold Groom Muse. I'm like, that's great. You know, that's fine. I did it because I questioned that one. But it's like, the idea is that you're marrying, you're making a vow and a promise to love, trust, and honor your true self.
[00:38:37] Elizabeth: I love that.
[00:38:40] Robbyn: So that's the first, like, traditionally, like, that would be the first act of a film in the hero's journey and or in a script, a screenplay.
And then once you make the commitment to embark on this creative adventure, you enter into the strange unknown with a Daring Explorer Muse. And that is where you learn, try, fail and grow with all the obstacles and everything. And there was a time when I actually played around with calling it the strange or the wild unknown. And that is inspired by Kim Kranz and the Wild Unknown Tarot. And I love that tarot deck. I love Kim Kranz. And I was going to even write her and ask her if it was okay to use it. I decided that I would not. It can just be a strange unknown that you've entered into. It's different from the home you left behind. And then that's when you move into, you start diving deeper into that space. You know, you can't turn back anymore. You've gone so far, you're too far away from home. You have to keep going. But then you get lost and you're diving deeper phase. And that's where you meet the Lost in Limbo Muse. And she is there to nurture you while you kind of go into a cocoon. You know, you're like the caterpillar transforming into the butterfly. There's that space where you just have to hang out. There's nothing you can do. It feels really uncomfortable.
And all these things are bombarding you with, you know, the questions about your identity and who you think you are. But this is where really the transformation is happening because you're just… you're tearing down those false selves so that you can get to the truth of who you really are and it doesn't get easier. You still go through, like, deeper and deeper into your ordeal, and it's painful. And like, this can be, you know, this can be a really big spiritual crisis. Or it could just be like you're working on a paper and it seems so messy, you feel like you're never going to finish it. So, you know, this is like “zoom in, zoom out” levels, right?
[00:41:14] Elizabeth: I love that.
[00:41:15] Robbyn: Yeah. But there's eventually, no matter how dark it gets, there's this idea, you know, you get this little aha moment, this epiphany. It's called the Enlightening Epiphany in the messy, magical, creative adventure where, like, just a tiny little bit of spark. My friend Nikki calls it, like, the bell going off. Like, you can hear it ringing, and you're like, yeah, maybe, okay. And you start to come up and that's all you need, you know? And I think part of why I wanted to create this is just if people know that, just knowing, okay, I'm hanging out, I'm in the dark place. But this is a cyclical adventure. It's universal, it's archetypal. It moves, like, the seasons. It's not, like, up to me. It will move, it will change, and just that little message of hope, because when you are in the dark place, you don't know. And, like, that's another reason why I created Kissing the Muse is that when you make art, it can help you vibrate up out of that dark space.
It's hard to see anything when you're that far down, you know, but you just drag yourself to a pen and a journal and start writing. Even if it's all dark thoughts. Something in that practice, that process, will shift the energy enough to that light to come through. So that's the Hopeful Healing Muse and the Enlightening Epiphany in the dark ordeal. It's surviving shadow muse, and we'll talk about her more when we. Because there's going to be a little fun bonus on that one. But then finally, from the Hopeful Healing Muse, you might start to get that energy to do something again, which was me deciding, I'm going to make something with the book.
It's called the Cosmic Comeback Muse. But she's not like your original self. She’s like “I'm going to go get things done.” Because she has all this spiritual insight and wisdom and things she learned when she was down dark below, like Persephone, you know, in the dark space. And so she, the Cosmic Comeback Muse,” is all about trying to reintegrate everything, you know, and bring it back into the everyday world. So once you do, though, you think you're kind of getting there. But you have to have one more transformative test that really, you know, seals the deal. Did you really learn everything? And that's called the Warrior of Love Muse.
This is when you realize the stakes are bigger than you. It's not just about your life, your journey, your adventure. It's like the things that you're doing, the choices you're making are impacting other people, and you can really start to see that, how everything is interwoven together. And, yeah, I really like to envision it like it's this big tapestry, like a musical tapestry. And if you start to do something over here and you play one little note and you think it's just in your own little world, you're really. It's resonating somewhere out there, and it's making, you know, it's making other people are hearing the music, let's just put it that way.
And then from there, you know, you come full circle to sharing the elixir, and that's with the Luminous Luna Muse. And she's like the full moon, and she is the muse that helps you bring your gifts and share them with the world. And that doesn't need to be some big project that you've created or published, or it can mean that you just have this different way of being in the world. When you're in a conversation with a friend, that can be your elixir.
[00:44:36] Elizabeth: That is so inspiring. And I'm thinking back to, we were just joking about, like, my religion is creativity. My religion is kindness, the religion piece. What's interesting about that, there's all these studies showing that fewer and fewer people are interested in religion, but more and more people are connected to spirituality. And what I feel like everything that you're talking about, the creative process, the archetypal journey, gives people back the sense of meaning and connection and hope. A thousand years ago, we got that from religion. But we have evolved. So now we need something more complex and nuanced and empowering. And I feel like this creative process, at least for me, gives me back that sense. And I love everything that you said about. First of all, it's cyclical. It's the journey of life. The idea that as you emerge from your dark night or dark forest, you start realizing that everything is connected and that all of our choices affect everyone else and that it's bigger than us, which was the whole point of religion originally, is to feel like we're connected to something bigger. And by the way, of course, we all know this. Indigenous people, I think, understood this intuitively from the very beginning. They understood their part in the immense cosmos. And I feel like this work is bringing us back to that understanding. There's this mythical journey that everyone is the protagonist of their own mythical journey, and every journey is connected to every other journey, and everything we do affects everything. That's so inspiring.
And I feel like you're giving people the tools because we talk about. I remember talking about this in JFK, that there's, like, everyday life tends to be a little. Feels not as creative. And then you go through this. This, like, this liminal space. When you go into the world of creativity, when you go into your workshop or hopefully an Intuitive Writing Project workshop, you kind of cross over the threshold into this other space where—what is it called? The third space or it's the space that's not the everyday world—It's a place that is more imbued with magic. The veil is thinner. You can go deeper. You can go under the surface and connect to something. And that's what you give people with these tools, with this deck, is it's the safe space to go deeper into reality and see the magic. We think ordinary world, but it's never ordinary world until you're doing something creative. I think that's how we touch the extraordinary. And that's what you bring people, is the extraordinary. I think that is what you bring.
[00:47:22] Robbyn: I appreciate that, Elizabeth. I always. You're one of my biggest fans, you and my sister. And it feels really great. And I think it's really important to say… the muse is a mirror. It's really a mirror. You know, we all are so these infinite, beautiful prisms of creativity and magic, and we just forget. And all I really want is to give people the time and space and encouragement to sit down and remember that for themselves. You know, reflect that each other. If we did more of that, like, even if it's just you doing it alone and feeling inspired and even if it's hard and dark when it comes up, it's like that alone is like you're putting something into the world that's authentic and real and it's you. And, like, you know, and then each little time we do that, like, we see a little bit more truth comes up. And I think that makes the world a better place. Even if it's messy and scary and dark, if it's authentic, it's like it's the truth. It's reality. And reality seems really hard and scary, but actually… it's magical, too.
[00:48:33] Elizabeth: It's totally magical. And I feel like art makes it because I think that's what happens is when you don't have a sense of meaning or connection, any kind of creativity or spirituality, it just feels like chaos. And what art does is it takes the chaos, it acknowledges the chaos, and it turns chaos into beauty, into art, into poetry, into something that actually transforms us. Doctor James Pennybaker talked about this. They've done all these studies that the narrative-making is what frees us from the feeling of overwhelm and trauma that we experience in life. As soon as you can form it into a story, kind of create a narrative around what you're going through, you're freed from it. It's no longer overwhelming. In fact, it literally moves in the brain when we're just experiencing raw, primal terror. Whatever, any intense emotion, it's actually in the back part of the brain, the older brain. And then as we start creating art and telling stories, it actually shifts to the frontal lobe. We literally wrap our head around it and then can process it.
[00:49:42] Robbyn: I love that. That's perfect.
[00:49:47] Elizabeth: So, it's just. That's what you're giving. And I can speak from experience. I have Robbyn's deck, and I have many times now been stuck because the creative journey is ongoing—we have moments of clarity and then many moments of being stuck—so I'll pull out her deck and pull a card, and it's always the perfect card, always, because that's the magic. And I read the description, and I look at the image, and it always sparks. I'm usually confused, of course, when I start, but something in the image and or the words sparks a thought, and I start writing. And by the time I finish writing—this just happened yesterday morning—by the time I finish writing, I feel like I've been freed from something and I understand something I did not understand before. I mean, I say this to my students all the time. We have everything inside of us, but it's sort of buried. And I feel like the way that we excavate our wisdom and our insights is through creative expression. It comes out, and you're like, “oh, my God. I didn't even know that was in there.”
But Robbyn's deck, your deck, does it. It pulls it out, and I think it's because the cards are archetypal, and archetypes are, like, the core of our humanity, and we understand it, and we're so connected by these archetypes. So I wanted to ask you another question about your own creative process, because, of course, like we said, this deck is the elixir that is the fruit of your own struggles and challenges in life and your own messy, magical adventure, which, of course, is ongoing. What would you say are the three greatest challenges you've had? Three challenges you've had as far as, like, expressing yourself and then how you've gotten worked through them, despite whatever the challenges you've pressed on and put them out in the world in terms of, like, what advice would you give, how you got through it and what you would say to other people about getting through their own challenges.
[00:52:02] Robbyn: You know, I think all of the challenges stem from one core challenge, which is not knowing the truth of who we are.
And when we have a practice. And it doesn't have to be a creative practice. It could be a physical practice of movement, or it could be a spiritual practice of chanting. It can be an arts practice. It could be cooking. But if you have a practice that connects you to the truth of who you are, walking your dog, you know, loving your family, playing with your children, I think in those moments, we have the clarity to know what matters the most, and we clear away the clutter and the buzz and the ego and the fears that are usually fueling the ego. That makes you think this is more important, and that's more important.
And no matter how old get, we're never done. So that's why it's so important to have a practice to remind you the truth of who you are, which is so much bigger than the identity of who you are. It's just this life force that's coming through all of us.
And having a practice that, you know, for me, it's Transformative Arts making, but it's also a Buddhist practice that I have as well, in conjunction with my Kissing the Muse practice that helps me remember that this is just such a gift to be here. And each person that I encounter is this unique, beautiful expression of this life force, and that empowers me to overcome any challenge. So I guess my core challenge is forgetting that and doing things that make me forget that. Being too busy checking out, you know, getting scheduled, scared, you know, the normal things. Not enough time, not enough money, not enough support, not enough encouragement, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Those are things that come from a place of feeling disempowered.
When I use my creative practice and my spiritual as a spiritual practice as well as my Buddhist practice, I remember the truth of who I am, and then I can overcome anything. And even when it's hard and scary and even if it doesn't go the way I want it to, because it never does, exactly. The essence of it can go the way it needs to go. I didn't set off to make a card deck and move to Amsterdam when I was teaching the archetypes course. But what I have been consistent in, in my journey is wanting to really become, like, express my full potential, to connect to my full potential, not for an achievement or accomplishment, but, like, just to be Robbyn. Just to be, like, the best Robbyn I can be in the world, you know, that sounds so cheesy and corny, but that means being authentic and, like, being a mess sometimes, not knowing what I'm doing, not having it together, having it all fall apart, not being a good person sometimes, and then trying to learn from that and bring that back around full circle so that, hey, yeah, that happened. But now I learned this, and I, oh, I know what you're going through, kind of because I had something like that. Let me help you, you know, because at the end of the day, so many people reached out to help me when I was in a hard place. And so many people have been, you know, to, like, get to shine brighter and brighter. Like, I think we all just really want to shine bright, you know, to shine.
[00:55:26] Elizabeth: That is so beautiful. I love that you've answered that question so perfectly. A couple things that I wanted to reflect back. That idea of connecting to who we really are, our true self that we often forget. And I think that is something that creative expression is uniquely able to do because so much in our culture is about surfaces, how things look, like on social media, God help me, how everything is appearances. And I feel like it’s so easy to get attached to external indicators of identity, which are so temporary and so easily lost. You have a title one day and not the next day. You're healthy one day and not the next. So how we can connect to something way deeper, which is what is inside of us and comes out through the art making process and connecting it to the deeper sense of who you really are and being authentic, that authenticity is everything. I mean, I think it was Mother Teresa who said she was worried that when she died, God would say that she hadn't been more like so and so, and God was like, no. Her thought was that God wouldn't care that she was not more like so and so. It's that she wasn't more like herself. Because that's our only job in this life, is to be the fullest expression of who we were born to be ourselves, our authentic selves. Again, art making is perfectly designed for that. And I feel like you, in describing that, you, once again, this is what you do all the time, so beautifully, is you give everyone permission and grace to just be who they are and know that it is magical and sacred and beautiful and important. And of course it comes out. We get proof of it in the art. That comes out because you look at the thing that came out of you and you're like, oh, if this is beautiful, this is inside of me. I have so much magic inside of me, and I just feel like you are the high priestess of authentic expression.
[00:57:42] Robbyn: I wanted to say, well, thank you for saying that. I do feel like, on that note, I should say, I think it's really important to say that the illustrations in the deck, I didn't create the illustrations. I collaborated with an artist in Spain who I just magically wandered into her little art shop and loved all the paintings that I saw everywhere. They felt like muses. I had been struggling because my artwork was mostly collage, and I didn't have the rights to use collage. I just loved her work, and I felt like it captured the essence in a way that was archetypal of what the muse could be without it saying, this is the muse, because each muse should be your own interpretation. So, yes, it captures the essence of me, but it captures the essence of you, too, Elizabeth. It's like this. What does it look like when we let this authentic truth come through us?
And, yes, it looks like this when it comes to Elizabeth. It looks like this when it comes to Robbyn. It looks like this when it comes to Raquel, my artist soul sister in Spain, and Villi, my designer. It's like, what a magical experience of just getting to collaborate and bring all this beauty and wonderfulness from these women and people, and that collaborated with me. That's the magic. Getting to see that in each other and then mirror it back and, like, we have so much fun. And, like, at the end of the day, it's really just about having a lot of fun.
[00:59:10] Elizabeth: Of course. The joy. The joy! You always bring joy to it. And I think that goes back to what you said earlier about the feminine approach, which is more internal and reflective, but it's also collaborative. I feel like the masculine is more like the lone hero on the mountaintop. And the heroine, or the feminine version is like the community, the collective energy of all of us doing our creative expression together. And what emerges, it becomes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts when we work together. So I think you're a perfect example of that, too.
And this next question is probably a little bit based on what you already said. You sort of answered it. But I love to ask this question of everyone. If your 13-year-old Robbyn magically appeared beside you right now and asked for your advice, obviously we'd have a lot to tell our younger selves. Because we've had a lot of life we've lived since then. But what’s the first thing that pops into your head? What do you feel like she would have loved to have known when she was 13.
[01:00:24] Robbyn: Don't be a cheerleader!
I didn't care anything about sports. I didn't care anything at all. And yet I wanted to be a cheerleader. And so I spent hours and hours doing games, and I didn't care about. I will say I got the community part from, you know, hanging out with girls and going on these, like, some fun summer camp things. But mostly, I really lament the hours and hours that I could have put into, you know, art classes or writing something else.
[01:01:08] Elizabeth: That's so funny! No, I have the same experience. I spent most of my adolescence, metaphorically-speaking, cheering on others, metaphorically focused on other people and not doing art. But part of it was, we did not have creative classes. There was no messy, magical muse for you in Kansas or for me. And so we had to do what we could. Also, it's funny because the archetype of the cheerleader, I know you don't care about sports or any of that stuff, but that's what you do with art now.
[01:01:39] Robbyn: Well, that part is fine. And I also, like I said, I did get the social aspect. The community aspect did come through. That was probably, you know, that part is why I joined. And also getting to wear the cute skirt. I thought that was fun, to buy a lot of clothes in junior high and high school three times a week. I mean, now, I actually did watch Bring It On or whatever. So I'm not putting down cheerleading or sports. I think those are great. Like I said, there's many paths. So my other advice for 13-year-old Robbyn would be just to… well, use that time to do what you really love, to pursue what you love. I think being a cheerleader was connected to, again, that stuff with my dad, like, this validating idea of, like, you know, looking to someone else and going, oh, you're proud of me. When I do this, I'll do that. And so really craving that. That sparkle in someone else's eye that you've made them proud. It's wonderful, you know, loving parents, wonderful. But the idea of doing something for someone else to get their validation, that's what's going to knock you off your track. Like you need to early on start to do the things, hopefully be encouraged by someone to find the truth of who you are, what you love, what makes you shine.
[01:03:10] Elizabeth: Oh, that's so beautiful. And that, I feel like, is one of the biggest blocks for all of us to get into creative, anything creative or give ourselves permission. But I feel women, way more than men, are raised with this incredible unspoken pressure to be pleasing, not just in our appearance, but in how we talk, how we act, what we put our energy into. Like, I mean, part of the reason I didn't stay home and, like, write poetry in high school, was because nobody was encouraging me to stay home and write poetry. If I had said that I wanted to stay home and write poetry, I would have been eviscerated.
So it is going against, in fact, Gloria Steinem said this, that “being your true, authentic self…means going against and thus helping to change much of current culture.” Hopefully, you are helping to shepherd in a new world, but it's not yet supportive of everyone having creative expression time. And that's what you and I are really wanting to shift, because everybody needs it. And I love that you say it… gives us the opportunity for us to focus on us instead of everyone else. And then, ironically, we help others so much more.
[01:04:36] Robbyn: That's exactly what I was going to add. Elizabeth. Yes. When we give that nurturing and attention to ourselves and our creative, you know, that creative seed inside of us, like, it gets stronger and it grows and it can't help but want to share it with the world. Like, I don't know what the it is. It's that creative life. But when we're wounded or just scared or, you know, it's okay to show up with it wherever you're at. And, like, I live in a place where, like, the idea of focusing on yourself is definitely not as encouraged as it was in California. It feels, you know, there's a saying here in the Dutch, you know, “don't stick your head up. The poppy that sticks its head up is the first one to get cut down.”
[01:05:20] Elizabeth: Oh.
[01:05:23] Robbyn: A bit of a different way of thinking about things, you know. So that's also been part of my creative adventures. Like, how do you talk about self-care, creative well-being, and at the same time, not have this?
You know, I'm here in the Netherlands and they do love it, but the idea of focusing on yourself and nurturing that creative part, it is universal and we do need it. But I think it's also important to say, like, it's not just this navel gazing thing that is about. And it sounds like I'm being negative, but, like, there is, there is value for the whole world when we take care of ourselves. And I think it's important to talk about that in a way that doesn't alienate people who don't necessarily subscribe to self-care in the same way that those of us on the west coast might, you know?
[01:06:37] Elizabeth: Yeah, that's right. I think it's really important to say because, and this is why culture is so influential, is that there is imbued in the culture for thousands of years of Western history that there is some sort of, “selfishness” to focusing on your own self-expression. And of course, we're discovering that is not true. That's the opposite. The more you focus on being truly authentic and self-reflective, the more you help everyone. But of course, I think that was intentional. Because it is so powerful to focus on expressing your truth. I think people in the past didn't want people to be empowered in that way… because it's absolutely the most empowering thing. And historically, we haven't wanted empowered people.
[01:07:23] Robbyn: Right, I think that’s right. Yeah, I think we're kind of scratching the surface of it, but it's true. It's like, it's worth acknowledging. It's like a little bit like the elephant in the room when you're talking about self-care in a way. But, yeah, we have to address this because this is part of the whole thing. This is why we weren't doing it in the first place. Place. You know, it's like, oh, it's not okay to go sit in your room and write poetry for hours and hours. Well, why?
[01:07:44] Elizabeth: Why not, right.
[01:07:46] Robbyn: You know?
[01:07:46] Elizabeth: Right. Who's that hurting? Right. It's so true. And I do it’s a really exciting time to be alive because all of the old patterns that have been around for thousands of years are still here, and yet there is simultaneously this new emerging culture that is so holistic and honoring. And, I mean, I guess it's in some ways a throwback to indigenous culture that is just really respects the sacredness of life, which is what, I love how you call it life force. We all have our own life force, and what is it? And everyone gets to discover it for themselves through creative expression, which is amazing.
[01:08:32] Robbyn: So I always like to think about this life force as a thing that exists, and it keeps bubbling up in a myriad of ways. So, like, it's bubbling up as you. It's bubbling up as me. It bubbles up as zebras and giraffes, you know, I don't know, a tree. Like, it's everything, and it's like. And it. I don't know, I just somehow thinking about it that way makes me feel like we can embrace it all… It's too philosophical for me to, like, understand completely. But that's where I say art and creative expression more than art, because art can be this big capital A word. Creative expression is my religion. It's a spiritual practice because I'm just trying to get out of the way so that can come through.
[01:09:20] Elizabeth: Oh, I love that. And that's actually a good place to wrap up on, is this idea of letting. Getting out of the way. And this is where it is so spiritual and so profound. When you're writing, creating, collaging, singing, whatever you're doing, something greater comes through us. Because I know every time I sit down to write and write anything worthwhile, it doesn't feel like it came from me. It came through me. And I've talked about this with our girls, too. Like, when you ask them where they got the idea, and they'll say that you don't know, or this little thing was sort of the genesis of it, but once they got writing, something larger swept through. So I feel it's part of what you said, how we're all connected. So there's some sort of energy that's running through all of us, that connects all of us, and it pours out of us magically.
Okay, so now I wanted you to just mention briefly, we're gonna talk more about this in the coming months. But I'm so excited, I've invited Robbyn to lead to be a guest teacher and lead an archetypal Halloween-themed writing workshop in October. If you would just talk a tiny bit about it. We'll talk more and when we get closer to it. But I'm so excited to have you come and teach.
[01:10:51] Robbyn: I'm excited to. And yes, it's going to be. We're going to work with the surviving shadow muse. Surviving Shadow Muse is the one about the dark ordeal. She's when you're in the dark place and the idea is that you tame your darkness with compassion.
We're going to make it a little more playful, though. We're going to talk about villains and darkness in a way that we embrace that shadow self. And what does that look like? And how can we use that energy to manifest the positive and the negative in a positive way? Does that make sense?
[01:11:30] Elizabeth: I love that. I love it. Transmutation, transforming the things we fear or the things we judge into something beautiful. Yeah, I love that. It's going to be really awesome. We're going to talk more about it in October, but just, this is just a little teaser so as you all can hear. Robbyn is extraordinary, so inspiring. I speak from experience when I say being in one of her workshops will make your whole month. It's like you spend 1 hour with her and you're uplifted for the rest of the month. It's so powerful. And we're all artists. You don't have to identify as an artist to be absolutely transformed and create something absolutely beautiful and amazing. It'll just pour out of you, I guarantee. So I was going to ask you, Robbyn, if you could tell people how to reach you and work with you, either in your group workshops or individually, how can people find you?
[01:12:32] Robbyn: Kissingthemuse.com, that's my website. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook as well through that link. But just search Kissing the Muse there.
[01:12:42] Elizabeth: All the magic is there. And then we can also sign up for your newsletter where you have really great updates.
[01:12:52] Robbyn: Right, my newsletter or MUSE-letter!
[01:12:56] Elizabeth: That is great. Robbyn, you are a joy and a delight and a perfect model and example of creativity and action.
Compassionate, encouraging creativity. Thank you so much for talking with us today and I can't wait to come to your next workshop.
[01:13:18] Robbyn: Thank you, Elizabeth, thanks so much for having me on the show.
