Episode Transcript
Finding Peace Through Poetry
An Interview of Hazel and Gretchen
Sept 2024
[00:00:00] Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender- expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.
To give you a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program because it's what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive space to be truly seen and heard. That's why we use the Amherst Writing Method, a radically-nurturing and empowering writing methodology, I wish everyone learned in gradeschool. You can read more about the Amherst writing method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book, “Writing Alone and With Others.” But the basic principles and the ones that guide all our classes are that 1) everyone is a writer with important stories to tell, 2) everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard, and 3) our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed.
In our classes, every writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone gives each other grounded, positive feedback. The way we do this is to repeat back and lift-up the words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us. Since we can't violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there, these conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our organization and read our students words as they were published on our blog, the Intuitive Voice, with the links below.
On behalf of all the writers at the Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices, for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people.
Today, I am so honored and delighted to be doing something very exciting and new. We're going to be interviewing two of our greatest writers—one of our great teachers, one of our great writers—who have worked together for four years. And you're going to get to hear from both of them. We're going to be interviewing the brilliant and amazing Gretchen Cion, who has been teaching the incredible class poetic playlist for the past four years, to one of her first students who's been with her all along. Hazel Smith is here today to talk about an incredible piece of writing. So because I don't know Hazel as well as Gretchen does, I'm going to have Gretchen introduce Hazel.
[00:03:00] Gretchen: Awesome. Thank you so much for having us today, Elizabeth. So fun to sit in this space together. So, Hazel Claire Smith is a writer based in Houston Texas. Currently, Hazel is a senior in high school on the precipice about to launch into her college experience.
Hazel and I have been writing together for four years. Like you mentioned with the “Poetic Playlist” class, I have personally known Hazel, oh, my gosh, since Hazel was in kindergarten, so since she was five years old. So I've had the privilege and honor of watching Hazel blossom into a young woman and see how she has spent the last four years truly dedicated to her writing craft. This dedication has paid off in full. She is a recipient of a rather large award, financial award, and distinguished honor from the circle organization at Rice University. Not only did she was she award winner, she won first place. This is just the top, like, the tip of the iceberg of where we're going to see Hazel go with her awards and accolades. So it's an honor to sit with the two of you today.
[00:04:08] Elizabeth: Thank you so much, Gretchen. It is incredible the bond each one of us as teachers gets to have incredible understanding and insight into our writers because we have such small classes. But I love that y'all knew each other even before the Intuitive Writing Project. That's incredible. She's been so recognized already. So we're excited to recognize Hazel, as well. We want the world to know her brilliance as a writer. So, Hazel, if you would introduce yourself with. We always ask these two questions. First of all, your pronouns. Second of all, your favorite type of writing, when you can write in any genre, when you're just writing on your own. And then the third question is, can you share a little anecdote about one of your first memories of loving to write?
[00:04:56] Hazel: Okay, so I'm Hazel. My pronouns are she, her.
The next question was, my favorite type of writing.
That is for sure. For sure. Poetry. I'm such a big fan of rhythm and sound, and I feel like in any, any type of writing, I make sure to work that in so much. I've gotten in so much trouble in my English class for my use of comma splices because they just sound better. And my, one of my first memories of writing, I've been thinking about this, it just has to be a memory of Gretchen. But it was when we were little, on Peace Day, we would make signs and we would come up with catchy slogans. And I remember I did not have the best handwriting, but that was not relevant when we were making our Peace Day signs and we would just, like, walk around our school and down to Gretchen's house and just have a big party. Those slogans were like, that was legit it's like I felt very, very professional.
[00:06:06] Gretchen: I think this is so apropos, too, that you brought this up. Because we are six days out from Peace Day. Shout out to Peace Day. It's September 21. Hazel, I love that you remembered that. I mean, obviously you remember. That was such a beautiful memory. But I love it was such a, like, joyous menu. But I love that you zoomed in on the writing aspect of it.
[00:06:23] Elizabeth: That is so interesting. Thank you so much, Hazel. And now that our audience sort of knows you. We would love for you to read one of your incredible poems. I think you were willing to share your incredible piece, “The Car.”
[00:06:39] Hazel: Yes. So this is “The Car.”
i was talking to my favorite person the other day
she smiled, she was talking about her boyfriend
she told me a story about spending the day with him last weekend
she was animated and she was laughing
she told me i can’t see myself with anybody else
she told me I love him and he makes it so clear that he loves me back
she told me one day she was getting gas,
he was waiting in the car as she swiped her card and selected the diesel fuel option
he screamed.
he jumped out of the car.
he said “Lillie you can’t put that in the tank you’ll ruin the engine
you’ll kill the car”
and she screamed and she said “how do i change it” and he fixed it
she filled up the tank
and i got to thinking what would happen if i chose the wrong option while i was filling up my car with gas
i’d ruin the engine, i’d kill the car
because there’s nobody watching me from the passenger seat,
there’s nobody paying attention when I do the wrong thing
there’s no boyfriend there’s no best friend there’s no love of my life there’s just me
and i screw up all the time
so while she told the story, i smiled
while she told the story, i told her “oh my god you guys are the cutest couple”
and while she told the story, i worried for my future
and i worried for the future of my car
[00:07:45] Gretchen: I love it.
[00:07:50] Elizabeth: This is so good. It's funny. There's, like, some humor in it. But it's layers and layers of meaning. And deep feeling underneath it. I really resonated to this writer. Like, I know this feeling. The feeling of not having someone in the passenger seat. Such a. I love how simple and direct the metaphor is for something really deep and universal. And actually, I think it's almost existential. Like, we all, everyone can understand the theme of this poem. And it's just exquisite. Especially, I love the repetition at the end. And while she told the story, while, while, while… That repetition creates such an incredible momentum at the end, which is so powerful for the last line, which is. “And I worried for the future of my car,” which is, of course, oneself. I still relate to that. Gretchen, you've heard this before. What do you love about it and do you remember also some of the things that people flagged when it was shared in class?
[00:09:01] Gretchen: So, first of all, I. Yes. Double down on the comedy. I feel like I. Hazel has been doing this for so long, and it's really hard to write humor, and it's really hard. I mean, I think humor exists in an interesting vacuum of, like, there's the ability to laugh, but it also ability to pull at, like you mentioned, at heavier concepts. And we see it, like, so beautifully done here. So I love, love the fact that there's humor in this piece of. I also love, like you mentioned, Elizabeth, the relatability of it.
I think we all know what it means to sit in that kind of. That seat of sorrow, essentially. Right. Of, like, what does it mean to be truly alone? And so I can see so many people connecting with this.
I love the balance, too, of, like, interiority. The whole thing is, like, set in this mind. Right. But there's also the scene. The scene is so interesting to watch and see, like, what's going to happen? I'm in the retelling of filling up the gas or filling up the car, rather. And then another thing that I love that I think gets at the depth of Hazel as a person is the duality, the ability to sit with kind of the weight of that loneliness. But also the line where Hazel says, oh, “my God, you guys are the cutest couple.” That is so, like, that is Hazel at her essence. She is one of those people that, like, builds people up, has so much positivity flowing from her. That's just her personhood. Right. And to sit in that, like, to be able to have that space but also sit in reflection of it. And what does it mean? And what. And how to unpack your feelings around this. Like, that's a big deal. I know plenty of adults that don't know how to do that. So that is so fun. Yeah. So amazing.
[00:11:09] Elizabeth: It's the generosity of the narrator that she's seeing somebody has something so beautiful that is kind of breaking her heart that she doesn't have it… but she's not going to show it. She's not going to weigh down her friend with her heartbreak. She's going to celebrate them. I agree. That's. That's amazing.
[00:11:28] Gretchen: Also, one other thing I have to say is, um, shout out to the lowercase. I'm like, yes. I think there's something so powerful in using the lowercase because it's like everything is sort of, like, stripped away, and you're left with the essence of the poem. You're not weighted down by uppercase letters. And I thought that was so cool. I would love to hear about that choice. Hazel, is that, like, cognitive choice?
[00:12:00] Hazel: Yeah. Actually, I rewrote it a couple times. The first time that I wrote it, I had capital letters, and it started feeling fake, which sounds like such a dumb thing to say, but, like, it. The way that I write is so focused on rhythm and on the sound. And with the uppercase letters, it broke it up so much, and it made every. Every line into so much of its own sentence that it wasn't such a, like, big decision, but it felt more right to just go kind of, you know, for the line breaks to be the. Maintain the main punctuation.
[00:12:44] Elizabeth: I love that. That's so cool. It also feels very—and we've talked about this in my classes as well—there's something very feminine about it. bell hooks, for example. I think she's one of the first female writers that was, like, no capitalization in her name or anything. And I've heard people say that the capital is like patriarchy, like, hierarchies of letters. Like, it's like, these are big ones and these are little ones, whereas women are like, “no, all letters are important!”
I don't know. There’s something very feminine about it. It feels more like conversational. Also, I think that this writer is really great at what I would call narrative poetry, which is telling a story through poems, which just happens to be my favorite kind of poetry, because there are poems that are very abstract, like an abstract painting. But this absolutely takes us on a journey. It's like a movie. I could even see this becoming a movie. It's very visual, and it takes us through all of the details, the sensory details, and the emotional experiences. Like you said, Gretchen, it's so incredible to have, like, here's what's happening, what the friend is telling us, and here's what's happening inside. And my heart is breaking, and I'm freaking out, but I'm going to smile and celebrate, my friend. Which is amazing.
[00:14:01] Gretchen: Yes.
[00:14:02] Elizabeth: We've talked about this before, but I personally really love the line, “and I screw up all the time,” this sort of acknowledgement. It's like a self-denigrating line a little bit, but it's that feeling I think everyone has the feeling that they're messing up, and everybody else figured it out somehow, and I didn't get the memo. I messed it up. I'm messing up all the time. Which is another thing that's very relatable. I think humility in writing is so it, like, it welcomes people in because people can be like, oh, yeah, I feel that, too.
[00:14:37] Hazel: Right.
[00:14:38] Elizabeth: And, of course, emphasizing on the worrying, that's also the most universal thing, is that we're always worried about the future, because how can you not be?
[00:14:50] Gretchen: Yeah, how can you not be? I think that one other thing I want to just quickly say about that.
I think there is such maturation in that. Like, It's a very mature thing to be able to, like, proclaim that mistake. Right.
Which I think that, again, I'm just. This is a shout out to the Intuitive Writing Project of, like, really working through, like, being able to use this space as a creative space, but also to, like, unpack some of those heavier things, because I don't, like, there's not necessarily space for that for everyone. And again, I feel like Hazel is 17 going on 27. Like, I feel like because you're able to see the world in such a way that is complex and robust and all the things, and I think having that perspective at a younger age is gonna bode well for you.
[00:15:49] Hazel: I think just having been in this class for four years, having, like, so many of what just feel like the lowest of lows that could possibly be low, and just having that space to just write through it and process and just think it just puts.
It just puts so much in perspective that doesn't make, like, things that I'm going through seem small or insignificant. Right? Like, and I think that's so much about Intuitive Writing is that it's just, like, exactly what you write is what you're supposed to be writing, you know? And I feel like that space has been so important for me in. In my, like, processing of my thoughts and feelings that it's just like, okay, and now everyone in the class is going to tell you that it's super awesome, even when the feelings are super lame, right. Like, that you can sort of create this magic that everyone will get really excited about is so comforting. And I think that, like, speaks so much to the power of this program.
[00:17:09] Elizabeth: That is so beautifully said. Hazel, I'm going to take a pull quote from this that is incredibly captured. And it is. It's. I think what happens to all women of all ages at every point in life is that somehow it's communicated to us that our feelings are too much or crazy or weird or we need to just, like, get over it or something. And so we press it down. And what writing does, and this is true of all art forms, but, of course, we love writing. What writing does is it turns your feelings into wisdom and art. It's like there's wisdom in your feelings. They're important and you made art out of them.
[00:17:44] Hazel: Right?
[00:17:44] Elizabeth: There's nothing more therapeutic. It's so, so good. I could not live without writing. And I love that we've converted… We haven't converted…. We've just given you a space to get to do what you would be doing anyway. But I think it's important to have that positive feedback that you've gotten from Gretchen and your peers because I think if we just…. A lot of times in school, you don't get anything positive back. So you don't really know your strengths and you need to have it mirrored.
[00:18:19] Hazel: To me, I think one of the, one of the coolest things about, like, watching this class from the very beginning where we were doing so many songs per class and just cranking out so much writing to kind of slowing down. And then sometimes it's two songs per class, sometimes it's just one. And now we've started bringing in some short stories and some, some humor. I'm a big fan, as is Gretchen of David Sedaris. And I went to one of his shows and that was what we talked about for half of the class and read his work and talked about humor in writing, right? Like, that kind of growth as a person. As a class where it becomes so much about what we can, what we can learn from other people. Like, even beyond music, even finding lyric in any type of writing has been so exciting. And I feel like I see it so much in my day-to-day life. Just like, oh, my God, Gretchen would love this.
[00:19:24] Elizabeth: Aw, Hazel, that's so beautifully put.
[00:19:29] Gretchen: I think you're so right. I mean, like, yes, Hazel just totally captured our class in, like, in its entirety and its growth and its development. I think. I actually can't really think of specific songs where what you, what writers produce felt like a complete, like, in the same line of thinking. Right. Every writer brings, like, such a different perspective and also, like, again, rooted in that idea of, like, the intuition, like, writing from their intuitive space. So, yeah, I will say the one song that this was early on and you all love, and it was one of the songs that I was. I was bringing in, and I was like, the writers need to know this artist. The writers need to know this song, and. But they're gonna be like, Gretchen, you're crazy. What's happening here? You know what I'm talking about, hazel. It was early on, and it's Kate Bush.
[00:20:37] Hazel: That was the craziest thing, because as soon as we listened to Wuthering Heights, we were all, like, obsessed, like, fully listening to Kate Bush, like, nonstop. And this was, like, right in the beginning of our class. This is, like, four years ago. And then a little later on in the class, maybe, like, the next session, she brought. Gretchen, brought in running up that hill. So fun. We were all so into it. And then the stranger things season dropped. Oh, that was a crazy intuition by Gretchen.
[00:21:16] Gretchen: Thank you very much.
[00:21:18] Hazel: It was like all of us had been listening to the song, and then suddenly it was everywhere. We were like, no way. None of us had ever heard the song before. That was just, like, a weird. Weird, like, seeing the future moment.
[00:21:33] Gretchen: It was. It was the power of our. It was a power. The collective power of our visions. We all just came together.
[00:21:39] Elizabeth: Stranger Things took it from your psyche. They tuned in…
[00:21:44] Gretchen: We pushed it into pop culture.
[00:21:45] Hazel: It was all that you did.
[00:21:48] Elizabeth: No, I do. I think that happens, like, because you guys were generating all this energy around it, and it was floating into the ethers.
[00:21:54] Hazel: Absolutely. Yep. Because it really was, like, the week after we listened to the song, the first trailer dropped. Like, it was so crazy. Gretchen, wait. Do you know, like, you live in California? Like, is that some sort of thing?
[00:22:13] Gretchen: What's wild is also one of the things outside of the class, we have, like, a text thread, and I think, yeah, everyone was just blowing up. It was just, like, so many texts that day. Like, oh, my gosh, did you guys catch this? I love that piece of it. The community piece. Like, I just adore the connectivity that you writers have. And I'm like,
you guys let me in on the text thread!
[00:22:47] Elizabeth: Well, you, such an incredible, inspiring teacher, Gretchen. I’ve said this many times to you and parents but I'm like, I wish I had Gretchen’s class when I was your age, Hazel. It would have changed my life!
[00:23:00] Hazel: It's so at any age, Gretchen Cion is the star of every show that she's in. It really is like, I visit California every summer with my grandparents, and every time I'm just like, hey, guys, how would you feel about driving up to Berkeley? It's so much closer than Houston.And really, like, I just have so many memories throughout elementary and middle school of just, like, their house was always such a haven for art and love and just so much vibrant life. Like their kids and their relationship, Gretchen and Ian, it just. They're such role models in everything I wrote, my college essay, and a major theme in it was. Was my writing and this positive feedback that we've, like, fostered in this class. And the first person I sent it to was, Gretchen.
And I think you are such a perfect person, Gretchen, that for the Intuitive Writing Project to have as part of it, it's just like, I can't imagine a better teacher. I just feel so lucky that you have been such a part of my life and that even after moving, that you've been able to stay a part of my life in this way.
[00:24:34] Gretchen: Hazel, you're making me cry. And I was, like, so crying when I read that essay. I just thought, this is, like, so beautiful, Hazel. I know. We are. We're connected forever. So you're stuck with me. Yeah. Even when you go off into the world. Yes.
[00:24:53] Elizabeth: I love that.
[00:24:54] Hazel: Yeah.
[00:24:55] Elizabeth: You'll be at all of her readings when you're getting publishing your books! Which actually is a nice segue to talking about inspiration, that you're talking about the community and inspiration. What advice would you give Hazel, because you've had an exceptional—I mean, all of our writers getting to write every week with this loving, supportive community—you get an experience that I would say less than 1% of the world has ever experienced what you've experienced. So you have incredible insights and knowledge and expertise. What would you say to a young writer who is maybe doubting themselves a little or maybe a little feeling a little stuck? What would you recommend to get the juices flowing and what works for you as a writer? What has worked for you?
[00:25:43] Hazel: I mean, one thing that has worked for me is the Intuitive Writing Project. That's for sure. Little ad in there, but sign up!
But I think truly one of the most, like, impactful thing, kind of for me, is, like, monotony. Like, things that are so boring just seeing what you can write. Like, you know, like, oh, my God, I just had the most boring day. Why was it so boring. How can a day with so much time in it have nothing interesting? I don't think it can. You know, and just focusing on the little details or the conversations that you had, that was a big part of this piece that I wrote. The cardinal was it was just like I was feeling so, so stuck. Socially, maybe, or just, I don't know, mentally, and thinking about, like, what is it that in that moment, stuck with me because it had happened maybe a month and a half before I wrote the piece. And then also, I think going back to anything you've written before and seeing, like, what did I like? What did I probably wish that I had written differently? How can I write it differently? How can I update it? That is a big thing. But just asking myself so many questions is how I move forward.
[00:27:24] Elizabeth: That is the most wonderful writing advice I've ever gotten. And I'm always reading books about writing advice, but this is the best advice. Its like finding the extraordinary in the ordinary.
[00:27:37] Hazel: Right. And even if it was all boring, that's incredible. If you were just awake for 15 hours and nothing cool happened, that's crazy. Awesome. Like, that is something to write about.
[00:28:00] Elizabeth: It's brilliant. This feels like the zen of writing. I mean, you're turning life into art. So what you're describing is, like, seeing life as an artist, seeing everything has got beauty in it. Even boredom is beautiful. You could write a book about this. I love this perspective.
[00:28:30] Gretchen: I also love. Oh, sorry.
[00:28:32] Elizabeth: No, no, no. I was going to say, you ask a question, because I have one more and then we can wrap up.
[00:28:36] Gretchen: Well, I just have one quick observation on that, and we're. Hazel was talking about, like, the art of reflecting or revising. Like, looking back at your work, that is probably one of the hardest things to do as a writer. And I know a lot of people that are like, I just. I can't. I won't. Man. These are adult writers that are just like. It pains them. I've been guilty of being like, I just can't. And to use that to harness the power of reflection and make it like a potentially generative thing is huge. Like, that's kind of monumental, hazel, that you can be like, oh, wait a second. Let me pluck this line of thinking and then make a new piece. Or let me, you know, tweak this part and play around. I mean, that's a really, that's a really big deal that you can put that as, like, one of your, like, top tools for. For generating work.
[00:29:36] Hazel: I think such a big part of that is, like, I've written something once a week or two things once a week for. For so long that it's like, I have so much, like, terrible writing from so long ago that just drives me crazy when I look at it. And then I'm like, wait.
Like, for something just to see how my tones have changed as a writer and how my voice has, like, adapted and grown into less of a mix of everything I've heard and more of my own thing to see, like, oh, wait, but I did like that line. But time is such a big helper for that, right? To be able to go back to a piece that I wrote three years ago rather than one that I wrote ten minutes ago.
[00:30:23] Gretchen: Yep.
[00:30:24] Hazel: Because editing immediately is very difficult. I have a tough time with that.
[00:30:32] Gretchen: I feel like in the beginning, Hazel, youre, well, you've always been a very, like, concise or not even concise. Like, you don't. You are. You use this economy of words in a way that is so powerful, and you've been doing that since day one. Now your style has changed for sure.
[00:30:55] Hazel: Right?
[00:30:56] Gretchen: But you have done that all along. What do you think, like, what is your. What do you think your, um, your drive is toward? Or how has that become your style? Where do you think that? Do you know where that's born out of? Or is it just like, that's who I am? This is my writing style.
[00:31:11] Hazel: Maybe it is just who I am. I have always been a fan of word counts in standardized tests.
Sometimes they'll have the ones where it's all the multiple-choice questions that are way easier than your class tests that you've taken 100 times, and then they have an essay portion, and it's like, in 300 words or less, and I always hit exactly 300. I just love to count. I love to mix around sentences and just. Just figure it out. I sound like crazy, but that has been such a thing for me, is just like, how can I say exactly what I'm feeling with the right words? And a lot of times, that means cutting out the words that don't matter as much or cutting out the words that don't fit with my rhythm the right way. And that is just a. Just a huge thing for me, is just like, if it doesn't have the right sound, I don't want it.
[00:32:10] Elizabeth: You are speaking as a true poet, like, to really care about every word and to make every word count and not have any extra words and have the word that is the most effective. Yeah. You are a poet. Clearly, you are a great poet. That is so interesting. And you're so far ahead. I mean when you are writing every week with the Intuitive Writing Project, you develop the sophistication, and I feel like the level of talent of an adult who's two or three times older than you. Generally, adults do not write as often as kids write in our classes. So you have, like, I love how you described. Like, already you have an archive of work. That's so cool.
Okay. You are brilliant and amazing. And I know you're going to be very famous someday, and you will probably be interviewed by someone like Oprah. So we're very lucky we're getting you now before you're famous. But I wanted to ask one final question, because you've had so much growth and you're such an exceptional writer just in the last four years. What advice would you give now to your 14-year-old self about writing?
[00:33:40] Hazel: Oh, man. I think just truly, like, I wouldn't be where I am today or anywhere close if I hadn't written things that I look back on now and just, like, roll my eyes at.It's just. It's worth it to have, like, deep, poetic moments that don't mean anything, you know, like, writing something and thinking that it's awesome and looking back on it and thinking that it's terrible is so part of growing and knowing what you like when you read other people's work. You know, like, being able to see it in yourself.
I have been thinking about this. I've always had a problem with mimicry. I used to not be allowed to watch Disney Channel shows because they “turned my voice sassy” is what my mom would say. That's, like, direct quote. I would start talking like the people in the shows. Like, exactly. It was terrible.And I think that being able to look back on my own work and grow from that has helped me to be less mimicky in my writing. But also, if I was talking to my 14-year-old self, say, like, read, you know, and I've always been a reader but just to start as early as possible, just consuming as much of other people's work as possible so that there's not one person to mimic. Right? So that. So that if I. If I am writing, I'm not mimicking one person.I'm sort of, like, harnessing that, like, power of art that I know that I love. Right?
[00:35:48] Gretchen: I feel like in class, when we're giving feedback there, there have been multiple, multiple occasions where Hazel will share, and the first thing out, like, the feedback person will, they'll say, oh, that's so Hazel. And so I feel like you have found that embodiment, and it literally is, like, recognizable. So that's brilliant. Yes. I mean, everything you're saying is just so smart. Yes, smart. And grow as a person. Like, you will grow as a writer in your own way with that visibility.
[00:36:31] Elizabeth: With other artists also, Gretchen, because you did just get your MFA, don't you feel like the way Hazel is talking about writing is the way people talk about writing in grad school? Like, this is very advanced understanding.
[00:36:47] Gretchen: Yeah, she said. She said she's going to rock college classes. They're going to be like, wait, what? Where are you coming from? How do you know these things?
I think that is part of this organization. Another shout out to the organization. But I do think sitting in this space, I don't know, Hazel, if you agree with me, but sitting in the space each week and looking at using your. Right, like, using your writing skills, but also using your analytical skills for the feedback piece is really powerful.
[00:37:18] Hazel: I mean, absolutely. And that. And that was my, was my college essay. Right? Like, that just, I think, speaks to how much that I feel it in every aspect of my life. Like, these things that I've learned in this program do apply to so much more than poetry. Right? It's like, it just so expands and, like, even, like, the way that I interact with people socially has, I think, grown just in these years from, like, learning how.
How people grow the best. Right? Like, by hearing things that they're doing well, specifically.
And I don't think ever in one of our classes has there been a time when someone shares a piece and all they hear is like, that was so great. And that's absolutely a part of it. But when it's like, oh, my God, that third line that you used that second word of it was so perfect, and, like, let me tell you why. And this is what sounded right, and this is what felt right, and this is the message that I got from it, and that is just so how we grow, you know? It's like that curriculum is so, like, tied to the human brain.
[00:38:39] Elizabeth: Oh, absolutely. Well, and last thing I have to say, shout out to Pat Schneider, who invented the Amherst Writing Method, which is exactly what you're talking about. It's such a female way of giving feedback. It's like, here's what I love and why I love it. And when you have people doing that for you, you start seeing yourself in a way you would not have seen yourself without, like, in a vacuum.
[00:39:02] Hazel: That's. I think such a big thing in. In school is like, oh, I'm gonna give the compliment sandwich. Right? Where it's like, anytime you hear someone say something good, you know that there's, like, a but.
[00:39:17] Elizabeth: But, yeah.
[00:39:19] Hazel: Coming right after. Right. Like, well, I think your voice is really strong.But I would change the whole thing. That's never something that I was worried about, and I think that that helped, like, anxiety levels so much. That's true. Right? I've always been an anxious person since kindergarten, and that is just. I.
Since, I think, the second class. The first class, I was terrified. And then everything was awesome. And, like, right away afterwards, I was like, okay, like, people aren't being mean. You know, where it's like. They just are so genuinely giving feedback that's, like, so purposeful and. And accurate and helpful too. Like, to what you're writing.
[00:40:16] Elizabeth: I love that it's like improv. It's yes/and instead of but. That but will kill you every time… Hazel, you are so articulate when you speak as well as when you write. You are so inspiring, so insightful and wise beyond your years. So it's truly an honor to get to talk with you today, memorialize this conversation. And thank you, Gretchen, for being the most badass teacher I know.
[00:40:50] Gretchen: Thank you. I'll take it. Oh, so fun.
