Episode Transcript
Elizabeth: Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing based empowerment program for girls and gender-expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders. For a of background, my name is Elizabeth, and I created this program 11 years ago because it's what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That's why we use the Amherst Writing Method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone learned in grade school. You could read more about the Amherst Method on their website and in Pat Schneider's groundbreaking book “Writing Alone and With Others,” but the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are 1) everyone is a writer with important stories to tell, 2) everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard and 3), our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed in our classes. Everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded positive feedback. By that, I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us.
Since we can't violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there, these one-on-one or three people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our org and read our students' words as they were published on our blog, the Intuitive Voice with the link below. If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It's pretty life-changing, and there's a lot more I could say about it, but I'll let these young writers speak for themselves.
On behalf of all the writers at the Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices, for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people.
Today, I am so thrilled and excited and honored to be interviewing our very own Jocelyn Grover, who has been writing with us for several years and is a profound writer. She's going to be reading a really exceptional piece that speaks to the Gen Z experience of social media, and I'm so excited for you all to hear it. To start us off, Josslyn, would you introduce yourself, give us your pronouns, your age, how long you've been writing with us, and a little anecdote about writing when you were younger.
Josslyn: Okay. I'm Josslyn Grover. I'm 16. I use she/her pronouns, and I've been with the Intuitive Writing Project for roughly three years. Um, I think I've been a writer since I could speak like <laugh>. I, before I could even write. I think I, and I, I think it's more than just writer. I feel like storytellers is more what captures my experience with writing. Um, and like I would talk to my parents all the time. I would like sing little bluesy tunes of like, the troubles of life. And like <laugh>, I was like three. And I think I had kind of a soulful like, connection to writing from a very long time. And anytime like in school, we would do creative writing. It was always the most fun and it was always the easiest thing. And it was always like, this is my subject. This is what I do.
Like, I just, in like fifth grade, I was like, this is me. Yep. <laugh> like, yeah, this is it. Um, and I think like a lot of my teachers would say like, oh, Josslyn loves to talk and she loves to <laugh> write and like, she likes English. And so I think that that's always kind of been who I am. And I always loved reading and hearing stories. And so I think just like I always loved listening to adults talk. Yeah, I liked all of that. I liked all aspects of listening to stories, telling stories. I just, everything about it fascinated me and it brought me so much joy. And so I think like I've always searched for that. And no matter what I do, I always look for that aspect of life.
Elizabeth: Storytelling. I love that you own that 'cause that is, I mean, of course our philosophy is that we are all storytellers because we're human beings. And at the same time, there are those of us, like yourself and I who are really, really, really, really passionate about it and need it to be like what we do in the world. Everyone can tell stories, you know, we used to all sit around the, the fire at the end of the day and tell stories. But this is like the art of telling stories. I feel like you've been honing it since you were three years old, since you could talk. I love that. And everything in your life is fodder for a story. That's what's so beautiful about writing. There's nothing that you can't write about.
Josslyn: Yeah.
Elizabeth: If you're brave enough, that's true. And you're brave, you're very brave. You're willing to write, um, deep things, which I love. So I'm gonna have you read a piece that you wrote this past year, um, which has the most epic amazing title. And this whole piece is an evolution, but the title is currently Declaration of a Gen Z Stargazer. Love this title <laugh>. So, um, if you would, regale us with this beautiful piece, if you would read it for us.
Josslyn: Okay.
The hunters of Artemis navigated by stars, their sacred stories are folded into the network of lights we have gazed upon for centuries. These burning bodies of gas full of mystery before anything. These were the maps of the heavens. These were the gods. Now I look at the rectangular shiny light held in the palm of my hand and wonder if this is my guide. Brilliance has been poured into this box, but what we so often find before our eyes, the infinite for you page, social media, something so vapid, but profound, shallow, but cavernous, cruel, but kind. So confusing. There are endless statistics of how social media is destructive to teens. Young adults are three times more likely to suffer from depression if they use social media. I saw that one posted on someone's Instagram story. Gen Z will save us. Gen Z will be the end of us.
As a victim and honeybee worker of social media, all I can really say is that it confuses me. At one moment, I watch a video of a screaming toddler clinging to her father. As she's separated from him while fleeing Ukraine with her mother, the father sobs silently and pats her head as they're pulled away from each other. I scroll down and the next video is a blurred edit of a nightclub with girls in skimpy outfits and sparkly cowboy hats, dancing under disco lights all while, all while habits by to low plays. The juxtaposition leaves me stunned. I don't know how to feel or what to do, but I'm momentarily pulled away from my perpetual scrolling. Swipe, swipe, pause, swipe, ignore. Time limit. Social media is an endless rabbit hole of content. It is meant to intrigue, feed comfort, and smother us until we cannot escape its grip.
We sit in boxes watching thousands, millions of other small lights flick in their boxes, but we feel alone. Everyone can admit this, yet we all log into our Instagram accounts each day. My generation has grown up with social media. Most of my youth has been documented by an iPhone camera. I can't really imagine a time without phones and social media. A fact that sometimes makes me sad and disappointed. Most adults aren't helpful. They love to talk about their generations and how glad they are that they weren't born in ours. When I was young, we used to go outside. We only had flip phones. AOL messaging was the closest thing we had to social media. There wasn't so much obsession about appearances when I was in high school. You'll destroy your neck sitting like that. Everywhere I go, I see kids on their phones.
Does anyone even read anymore? Yes, I read. There's a whole community of people on Instagram and TikTok that dedicate their time to sharing their love of books. I feel a personal connection with these people I've never met. They're funny, charismatic, and smart. I love the same fandoms as them. Do you even know what a fandom is? And even if my neck is in a sloped position, I am laughing and smiling when I see this content. I wanna say all of this, but I do not. Social media is not a box eye opened yet. I am labeled Pandora. Every young generation is ridiculed and criticized in some way by an older generation who is ridiculed by an older generation who is ridiculed by an even older generation. And this goes back and back until we are nothing but monkeys picking ticks off each other. And yes, I've seen that on TikTok, but Gen Z did not invent social media.
It was forced upon our backs since we could crawl. And although we have carried this weight until we now stand, we are blamed for its rise in ubiquity. The solution of cutting away all social media with one sweep of a knife is improbable. Whether we approve of it or not, it is woven into the fabric of young people's lives. It's in our brains, our skin. There's no cutting away of it. I don't think adults understand that. We have our own opinions of social media. We have an understanding of how it has affected us, and we know the burden we shoulder. We feel disappointment, anger, and shame. We are sad that people don't write letters anymore, twist a finger around a phone line, or have the old fashioned type of meet cute relationships. We admire our grandparents' stories, but we still stare at other people's lives through a thin black screen.
And we search for authenticity at night. Our faces are illuminated by the light of that tiny screen. And we wish we could see the stars. Instead. Hours are spent contemplating how others perceive us and how we create our own curated brand. Who am I? It's not a new question for adolescents, but it feels warped through the pixels. Sometimes we don't feel this way. We send funny memes back and forth. We appreciate those who have come before us, those who have made a difference, and we contemplate how we will do the same. Everyone says teenagers don't talk to each other anymore. And maybe we are a bit more socially awkward and hesitant because we were locked inside for two gears. But the idea that we don't talk is simply wrong. We shout bigger ideas sprinkled within the smaller ones. We debate, which surprise song Taylor Swift will play on tour tonight.
And we advocate for women's healthcare rights. We send around memes of the movie Zoolander and fight for gun control. We crane our next down and wonder what are we going to do to save this planet? It is painful and crushing, and it is beautiful and freeing. And it is ours. Within this confusion and duality, I believe there is a unity. It is a humming connection built of all those swipes and pauses and smiles and time limits set and ignored. And still, I long to see the stars. This is who I am. This is who we are.
Elizabeth: Oh my God, this is so incredibly powerful. I mean, every line is a magnificent quote. I it's hard to just… we're gonna talk about some of my favorites, but every line is magnificent. I just wanna say my overall feeling, and this is, I've read this several times and this is the, the latest revision. And hearing you read it, hearing your voice is so powerful. And the overall feeling that comes from reading it is the vindication of the wisdom and power of young women. It’s what I keep talking about <laugh>, trying to tell other adults. You have to understand young women, the young people of Gen Z are amazing. They are so deep and complex and profound but they don't understand. But they will understand when they hear this piece and when they read this piece. And the link to this piece is underneath the podcast.
This is magnificent. And this is such a, it's like an anthem for Gen Z, even if not everyone can write as eloquently as this particular writer. And thank goodness this writer has expressed these things 'cause I feel like they are universally felt by everyone in your generation. And I think anyone who reads this in your generation would be like, hell yes. This is what it's like to be us. And the level of self-awareness, the fact that social media was not created by you, it is not y'all's fault that it exists. You're simply using what was thrust into your hands and using it exceptionally well, by the way, using it much better than adults. And I feel like that is to be celebrated, how well you use it and how self-aware all y'all are while you're using it. It's such a magnificent piece. Okay, I'm gonna just talk about a couple things.
First of all, and this is kind of gonna get us into talking about processBut when you read this for, you wrote this in class, the first draft of this was written in class in like, I don't know, 40 minutes, which is mind-boggling. So you wrote it in 40 minutes, you read it, and I was blown away. My jaw was on the ground. And then you revised it and polished it and made it more powerful, which is, I didn't even think it could be more powerful. And it, it became more powerful. That first paragraph is one of the new pieces, one of the evolutions, and I just wanna read some of the lines again. Well, first of all, the very first line. I love Artemis and “the hunters of Artemis navigated by stars.” I love how the writer is constantly giving us the biggest possible view of the biggest possible context of this situation. And that is that in the beginning, this is what guided us—starlight. This line, the second line, oh my God, “their sacred stories are folded into the network of lights we have gazed upon for centuries. These burning bodies of gas full of mystery.” Oh my God, <laugh> So good.
And this is, it also anchors this story of what's happening in the present, this social media phenomenon that sort of engulfed our lives. It, it gives us like, okay, this is connected to something very ancient and deep. This is just the latest version of it. Um, I love the transition from, okay, “before there were maps of the heavens, those were the Gods. Now I look at the rectangular shiny light held in the palm of my hand and wonder if this is my guide.” Basically, that we're always, that's our human nature to look for guidance, to look for illumination. And also, of course, I hadn't thought about this until you pointed it out by writing it that a phone is a light that we used to look at the lights in the sky 'cause that was what we had. And now we have lights in our hand.
The whole, this whole first paragraph is just mind boggling. Thank you, <laugh>. But then we get into talking about being a Gen Z person, um, in social media, in a social media world. So I wanna talk, I'm gonna quote some other lines that I thought were amazing, but I wanted to stop for a minute and let you talk about your creative process. First question is, when you, before you started writing this piece, did you know where it was going? Was it like you kind of had a, a vision in your head, or did it sort of surprise you? What came out? And then how was the process of editing it over time?
Josslyn: Yeah, so I think I've always wanted to write about social media and my relationship with social media and my generation's relationship with social media. And I feel that idea was kind of floating in the back of my mind for a long time because it's so present in my life. And then I mentioned it in the piece, but that moment where I watched those two videos of the daughter mm-hmm. And her father in Ukraine. And then that video also, I should mention, I think the Swedish pronunciation of tlo. I know that's like the American, I said that because I think most Americans pronounce it that way, but I think it's actually TVA Lu, which I, oh, anyway, I thought I should add that <laugh>. I didn't wanna say that. People, not to recognize it, but that correct pronunciation, <laugh>, that's awesome. But I felt like just so shocked.
And so I didn't know how to feel and I didn't know I was disgusted, but I also felt pain and sympathy and just, I was so confused. And I, and it did stop my perpetual scrolling as I said. And like, I just sort of stopped and I knew that this was a key thing to mention. I wanted to mention it. And I went to my journal, um, which is where often I think when I have overwhelming emotions, I go to my paper writing, which I usually don't do for longer pieces because I think it's more efficient to type. But if I have just like feelings that I don't really know what direction they're going in, but I just, they need to come out, I write in my journal. And so I took that out and I just sort of started writing. Like I wrote that moment and I was just like, I wanna remember this.
I wanna remember this feeling and this moment and those two videos. And then I think about a week later, we had our class and I thought, okay, this is a good chance to write something, an actual piece. And so I sort of took that moment and I spread it out longer. And I think as I was writing, I started to have more realizations about, like, I, I came to some conclusions because I, I think I was still left in the beginning with that feeling of confusion and just like, what do I do with this? I know this is powerful. I know that what this example is a great example of something. I don't really know what something is yet. And so as I was writing, I think I just wrote what was true and what I felt. And I started writing kind of about the bad things, kind of about the confusion and then about the bad things and how I hate social media sometimes, and how I feel such a burden with social media.
And then as I was writing, I started to write about the good things. And it's not awful. And that's why I kind of feel the confusion too. And I don't know, we were given this big, vast thing, <laugh> that's so hard to make sense of. And then I think as I kept on going, I sort of was, that declaration sort of came to me of like, this is complicated. And it's so confusing and it's so complex and it's awful and it's also beautiful. And there's, it's just such a vast thing. It's a vast entity and it can be bad and it can be good, but it is part of my generation. It's part of that cultural, I think each generation has the culture that they grow up in, and that becomes a part of who they are. And I think there's so much shaming of social media, and it is a, it's not a fantastic thing.
There's so much, so many awful things, so awful parts of it. But I also think that it's who we are. And that's kind of how I came to that declaration of like, we didn't bring, we didn't come up with this idea sort of giving that we were like the little, we were the test, I say like the honeybee workers of kind of like, we just were given this, um, and we used it. And now it's kind of part of our culture. , and it's be, it can be bad and it can be good, but it's ours <laugh>. So I feel like I, I don't know. I love that kind of, that declaration like as I was writing. And
Elizabeth: Then with that that line, just exactly what you're talking about. I wanna quote back your line. “Social media is not a box I opened yet. I am labeled Pandora.” That is profound. Like it's exactly what you're saying. Yeah. You, I can't say it any better than that. That somehow that your generation is shamed for being part of something that was thrust upon you.
Josslyn: Yeah.
Elizabeth: It's so unfair.
Josslyn: Yeah. I think, and I, I got into like, even more deeper meaning when I went back to the editing process, because I think I started with the sentence originally, like, social media is confusing. And that was just the idea that I had. And I worked off of that idea that it's confusing. And then as I went back, like I think I was, I was talking in a very literal sense and just like telling the, the emotions that I felt and the things that were happening and the things that I saw. And then when I went back, I sort of returned to the idea of I, at the end, I had that stargazing line of like, wanting to see the stars and like being in boxes. And I, I, I am a very nostalgic person. I'm a, I always look for the I, and I always look for deep meaning in things.
It's just like who I am. I'm very emotions feeling centered person. And so I was sort of just like thinking about the stargazing thing and thinking about how powerful social media is. And so I sort of just was thinking about like, what is another powerful stargazing thing? And I thought about Greek mythology, and I've always been fascinated by Greek mythology. I loved the Percy Jackson books when I was in like fifth grade. I thought it was, it's such a sacred mystical thing. And I think that comparing the godlike power of Greek mythology and stars and the universe to this sort of God-like power that social media has now in our people, in our generation in Gen Z, I think that that was kind of a comparison that elevated the piece. And also I think just starting, as you mentioned from a wider perspective and then zooming in, like just thinking about the vast universe and the stars and the evolution of how we've gotten here and how social media and technology is extremely impressive.
I still, I don't even know how phones work. I mean, I, it's seems <laugh> it's crazy. Technology is so impressive and it's like awe inspiring about how we've managed to create this thing, but how our creations have also done some damage. And I don't know, it, it's this thing of like, you appreciate the evolution and then also sort of thinking about what it's done to us as a culture. So I think that that was, it was a lot of things, but I think that going back with that and starting with that wider thing, , perspective, it makes it more sacred in a way.
Elizabeth: I love that. I love talking about the sacred. It makes me think too about the myth of Prometheus who brought fire and was then brutally punished. And I think that there's something about humans that we like, we want new, great, magical things, but then we fear them and there's all this psychology behind it, and we shame ourselves in each other. That line. Okay, I wanna highlight this because I absolutely believe this is true and this is why I'm so glad you said it. And I hope every adult hears this. “I don't think adults understand that we have our own opinions of social media. We have an understanding of how it has affected us, and we know the burden we shoulder, we feel disappointment, anger, and shame.” And then the sadness the writer talks about like that they didn't have, you know, I love the little anecdotes, like “not writing letters, not twisting a finger around a phone line. The old fashioned meet cutes.” And it makes me think, I mean, of course this is the context of the piece. This is the declaration of Gen Z. There is nothing ever wrong about what each generation experiences being different from the last one. Thank God it's different. How boring would it be if every generation was the same and experienced the same thing? Personally, I think every generation is evolving into greater and greater awareness and spiritual consciousness and wisdom, which is why I say this all the time, but I truly believe Gen Z is the most spiritually conscious, politically, ethically, morally-advanced of any generation that has ever lived. And that's as it should be. So I like that you brought up the idea of nostalgia. I think we have this weird tendency to always think the past was better, but it's just different.
Y ou didn't have the phone cord to twist around your finger, but that phone cord was annoying. <laugh>, you had to stay in the room where the phone was, or you like dragged the cord around the corner and tried to close the door on it. And it was stupid. So much better to have a cell phone. So I think it's understanding that things change, and I think that is probably the hardest thing for all of us, myself included. Change is so scary and it's the unknown and it's unpredictable. Social media every minute, the way you've described it, every minute you can get some new crazy information depending on who's posting what, when, where you are.
Josslyn: It's endless. It's just endless. It's keeps on going and going. And it, and I think it does feel a little bit, I've thought about it a lot and I actually had a discussion with my dad about this once, um, <laugh> about how like, you know, there is like a legal drinking age and that like, there are people who suffer from alcoholism and then there are people who can enjoy alcohol as like a fun thing and that it's like a drug, you know, all drugs. Yeah. Like you can have it in moderation and it can be a good thing. And then it can also be awful. And I guess <laugh>, eventually we might come to that realization with social media a little bit of like, it is so it's too much for when you're too young, I think. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's just like when you're 12, it's like, what?
And I didn't get social media at 12. I got it in eighth grade. And even then it was like, it was a lot. Mm-hmm. And I think that it's such, I keep on saying vast, but I think that that's just the word that comes to mind is that in each corner of the internet, there's just so much. And there are a lot of like, funny things that I, you know, I send funny memes back and forth with my friends and my family and it's great. And we all laugh. And then there's also just horrible things. And it's also endless. And it's just sometimes feels like a void that you get like sucked into. Yeah. Which I think is hard to deal with. Like, how do you, how do you get some of the good parts without feeling the void of social media? And I, that's something I still struggle with.
I still, you know, spend too long on Instagram and then close my phone and I'm like, what did I just do with that hour? Like what? That hour's just gone. It feels, you know, it's so easy to go into that. And then no one ever closes Instagram after like an Instagram binge and is like, I felt productive <laugh>. I felt really good about that. Like, I don't think, I don't know, I, and it's a weird space of like, you don't wanna loathe yourself for that. You don't wanna, that's not a thing that's worth hating yourself for, for doing that. But it's also, it's, it's so confusing. And that's just, I think I always just come back to that. And I think about the older generation part of the shame, I think I have older siblings who are sort of millennial age, um, and I've also just been around adults a lot.
So I feel like I end up talking to adults about, they always are like, how's Gen Z doing <laugh> <laugh>? Um, and I think that there is kind of that shame aspect of like, oh, gen Z, the social media is so bad. And I'm like, I didn't do it. Like <laugh>, they, they'll tell me kind of things of like, you know, it's just such a shame. I would never wanna be born in Gen Z. It's, it's kind of, I don't know. I don't know what to do with that. So I, I sort of felt like I wanted to translate that of I didn't come up with this idea none of us did, and just be, it's kind of become a part of us. And I think that we shouldn't feel shame because of its existence. It's not our fault, I think is what I would say. And I return to that idea a lot of like this entity that you have to deal with. It's not like you created it. It's not, I don't know. And I think that shame is such a bad way to approach it.
Elizabeth: Oh, always. On every subject shame helps nothing ever. <laugh>.
Josslyn: Yeah. The most unproductive emotion. Yeah.
Josslyn: Yeah. And I think like when older generations are like, oh, the phones, it's like, it’s become part of who we are. And I think like, there, there is the people I see like older people on Instagram or TikTok or the newspaper or talking about like, we need to cut down on phone use and we need to cut out social media. But it's become such an integral part of Gen Z's existence, gen Z's communication, their thought process, everything that it's like, you can't just cut it away. It's, it's a problem that you can't just like get rid of by it not existing. It exists. It's out there whether you, like it's put out into the world.
Elizabeth: It's out there. I love that line. I'm sorry, I have to quote you again. You said it so well. “Whether we approve of it or not, it is woven into the fabric of young people's lives.” More than that. The writer says, “it is in our brains, our skin. There is no cutting away of it.”
Josslyn: Yeah. I think that that's, it just feels, it's made its effect already. And I think that a better, a better way to look at it is like, it is a part of who we are and we need, we need to figure out ways to deal with it in productive ways, bad ways, you know, like, obviously I've said this so many times in this call, I've said it like 15 times, but there's bad parts and good parts. And I think Gen Z needs to claim that that was my declaration of a Gen Z, stargazer <laugh> of, yeah. I think for me, I'm a person who has nostalgia and looks for deeper meaning and wants things to be sacred. And I think social media can sometimes feel so vapid and so not sacred co <laugh>, like it can feel so disgusting and shallow and just, and it feels very modern in a way.
But I think that eventually we'll look back on this version of social media as a very large powerful, and I don't wanna say sacred, because sacred feels like something really, really good. And I don't think that social media necessarily is really, really good. There are parts of it that are really, really good. Um, but I think that we'll look back on it with that eventually, generations in the future might look back on this social media, this version of social media and say, wow, that was a good thing. Like, have nostalgia for that. And I think that looking at things in a black and white way is never good. I'm not a black and white thinker. I'm like the rainbow and the colors and tears and emotions and feelings all in one big mixing pot. But that's how it feels to me. I think that I look for sacred meaning. I look for understanding, , understanding. And I think that the conclusion I reached in this piece is that there is no simple understanding, but it is who we are. And I've said that so many times, but it's just, it's true. It's who we're, it's in us.
Elizabeth: It's beautiful. No, it's so beautiful. And I, I love that you used the word sacred. All adults need to note that Gen Z knows what sacred means. There's a lot of adults that don't know what sacred means. Sacred is a really big word for me. I, to me, I feel like what you're talking about with sacred is the inherent meaningfulness of the human soul.
Like it's all about curating your social media feed, right? We've talked about this and I've gotten help from y'all about this. Like how to make your Instagram and TikTok feed better reflect your values. You can actually do that. And with great time and effort, you can get to the point that everything that shows up in your feed is coming from. I mean, there's incredible spiritual teachers and deep philosophers and I love all the mental health content. Oh my God. I follow so many psychologists and I'm always learning from them. So I think that what is sacred and what you're looking for and finding meaning in social media is those moments when human beings are authentically expressing some deep truth. And you get to share in it. They may live in Sweden or Alaska Yeah. Or China, and you get to benefit from their authentic wisdom, which you never would've had if we didn't have social media.
Josslyn: Yeah. I, I do think, I think there's, like, when I talk about like the good things about social media, I think I think of like funny memes and stuff and all of that whole category of TikTok and Instagram of people making fun of TV shows and, and tropes and whatnot, and sending that back and forth. But there's also connection with people across the world that you and teachings and, and it, it feels like almost social media, the process of going through social media and scrolling is like, you find the occasional gem Yeah. And you have to scroll a long time to maybe get there. Yeah. And I think that can feel awful because there's so much that there's these really true gems in between all the other stuff that you kind of have to pile through. Yeah. And I think that like, as a whole, that is confusing and it's sort of hard to deal with. Like is, I've had people say like, is it worth it? Like to scroll for 20 minutes and then find one thing that makes you feel profound? Yes. No, I, I I would say yes. Yes,
I don't know. And I, for me, my relationship with social media tends to be the doom scrolling, like the endless scrolling <laugh> in which you can find good things. And then sometimes you're like, what did I just do? Because it is such this overwhelming flood of content that it does feel like, what am I supposed to do with this? And I think that that is gen a new gen Z question of what are we doing with this? What do we do with this? Like, what does this become? We put so much out there that at what point, how do you take, what do you take in, what do you throw out? Where does it go? I don't know. And it's out there forever. I think that's also a whole thing about posting. Yes. Putting a version of yourself out there. Even if you delete it, people screenshot it, people whatever, you know, I'm not like,
It, it's just this version of like, there's different versions of yourself out there and dealing with how, what do you do with all those versions of yourself? How do you put that version out? How do you put the version that you want out? And then how do you also not feel vapid and fake when you, you know, I think that there's sort of the idea of putting out a curated image of who you are that accurately represents your values and your personality, but it can feel fake and forced. But then it's also how do you be vulnerable? How do you, you know, you don't wanna overshare, you don't wanna be like telling everything about your life. And so I think that it, it's that weird balance. And I don't have an answer. I don't think anyone has an answer really. But it's something that people have to deal with and it's something that Gen Zs has to combat through their growing up.
I think that it's, when I said like the line about like, who am I? It's warped through the pixels. It does feel, it feels like a new question, like your identity and then your identity online. It feels like a whole new layer of that question of fi figuring out who you are and finding your identity and how your identity is always changing. And how the person you are at 16 is not the person you are at 30 and not the person you are at 50. And that what you put online when you're 15 is sort of out there as a version of yourself. And that's just, it's complicated. It's complex and it's a lot to deal with. And it feels, it is at times a burden. And I think when older generations talk about it in black and white terms, it's like, no, we understand.
We understand it's a burden. We understand how painful it is. Like we're aware of that <laugh>. And I think that is sort of the level, I think that's the deep level of that is that we know, we know it's a burden and we know we're gonna have to fight it. And we're going to, and we're doing this, this is who we are, but don't shame us for having to do this. I think that that is, and I always come back to that conclusion because my writing always ends in some dramatic declaration. So that's, I just decided to call it declaration because I feel like all of my writing always ends in some big statement of like, this is who I am. Because I think that's the question I'm always trying to answer in every single thing I write. But yeah, <laugh>. Yeah.
Elizabeth: Well, first of all, that is the magic and the power of writing is that it is a self- revelation process. I mean, I feel like we don't know sometimes or we don't have perfect clarity about what we think and feel until we write it down. And the process of writing it is like, yes, this is what I believe. Here it is. And it just formulates it and lays it out so beautifully. And then there's like the relief of it fully expressing how you feel that you hadn't expressed before. It feels so good. <laugh>. Um, what comes up to, for me, and I hadn't thought about this before, but I actually saw a post about this on Instagram and it's popping back in my head. And this is like the gem that somebody had said, I cannot remember now who it was. I probably screen grabbed it. It's somewhere on my phone. <laugh> And it is that really, social media is about cultivating conscious discernment. If you are not conscious and you're just passively, and I've done it, everybody's done it. And in fact, like if you've had a really bad day, it's the absolute worst. 'cause you just go down that rabbit hole mm-hmm. and you just scroll, scroll, scroll. And it's almost like, so you don't have to feel anything or think anything, you just scroll, scroll, scroll. And that is that horrible empty rabbit feeling, <laugh>, that you feel so gross afterwards. But I think what you're talking about, I mean, is that all options are available online, but what we're leaning toward and what I think your generation is mastering ahead of adults, I think your generation is getting a handle on it first and is going to be leading the charge. And I follow so many young people on social media and y'all are being conscious about how you're using it and discerning what is authentic.
There was that great line where you said, um, about, here it is, “we admire our grandparents' stories, but we will still stare at other people's lives through a thin black screen. And we search for authenticity.” The very fact that the one is searching for authenticity, if you're searching, you're gonna find it. And I think it's a really existential question, “who am I?” It's a lifelong question. But the fact that you're, you're plumbing the depths and trying to figure it out, you start discerning what is meaningful to you, and then all the other stuff can go to the side. I also had the image of, since we're going back and forth between hunter gatherers in our current time, when we, I mean it, it seems like it was mainly women, although I'm sure there were some men who did it, were we were the gatherers. As women, we would have to go out into the field and discern, consciously discern between the poisonous mushrooms and the healthy mushrooms and the poisonous berries and the good berries. We were always from the beginning of time, we've been like, don't do that one, but you should do that one. Yeah. Which means the only way you can discern between several different options is you have to see all the options And so I almost wonder if social media is like a modern version of hunting and gathering.
Josslyn: I that is a great way to put it. I like that. I've never thought of it that way.
Elizabeth: I haven't either. It's funny. And I think that's what's happening with social media is that here's, like you said, vast infinite amount of knowledge that goes on forever. And we all have to figure out how to pick what's right for us. And that's why, again, gen Z is so ahead of us because I think adults, I think adults feel ashamed of their own use of social media. There's that expression, “hurt people hurt people.” And I also believe shamed people, shame people. If you feel shame, if, I mean, if a person feels shame, they're more likely to pass that shame along. So most likely the shaming that is coming from adults isn't about you at all. It's the adults’ shame. So I feel like the adults can, instead of shaming young people, can learn from the discernment that Gen Z has.
Josslyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's you, you always put things in beautiful. You phrase beautifully <laugh>. Ah,
Elizabeth: That's, well, I'm just riffing off of your genius. It's so freaking amazing. Everything that you wrote is so profound. I want everyone, I want every adult to read this because of all the things we've talked about. I think there is so much weird judgment and bias and shame against teens. And like we need y'all to have as light a, to feel as light and as empowered as possible. Because this is the other thing though, through no fault of your own, we are kind of expecting you to save us from our stupidity. So we need you guys to feel good and positive and not be weighed down with shame that is not helping anybody. And that brings me to the final, um, I love the last paragraph, the examples of the things that, um, that Gen Z does online. “We debate which surprise song Taylor Swift will play on tour tonight.” Boy, that's relevant right now. Um, and “we advocate for women's healthcare rights.” So could you reread starting with, um, actually with “we Crane our next down,” because that circles back to, you know, you had mentioned Crane your next before from that line to the end. Could you read that again?
Josslyn: Yes. We crane our next down and wonder what are we going to do to save this planet? It is painful and crushing and it is beautiful and freeing, and it is ours within this confusion and duality. I believe there is unity. It is a humming connection built of all those swipes and pauses and smiles and time limits set and ignored. And still, I long to see the stars. This is who I am, this is who we are.
Elizabeth: Oh my God. So of course, the reason I wanted you to start with that line is that question, which Gen Z is leading the charge? I don't know if you just saw that the kids, teenagers in Montana successfully sued the state. Um…
Josslyn: Oh, I did see that
Elizabeth: They succeeded in using the legal system to, um, say that Montana has to stop polluting because that's actually part of the one, one of the values of Montana is that everyone's entitled to clean air and water. And they're like, you're messing that up. You can't do that anymore. So this whole thing about, I mean, I remember crying myself to sleep when I was a child about environmental issues and there was no momentum behind it in the eighties. But I love, like with Greta Thunberg, and there's so many activists, like dozens and dozens and dozens of incredible climate change activists that are all Gen Z. And this, this is points out like again, the awareness, self-awareness of the generation. Yes. We're we all, you know, look at pop culture stuff, but you're also saddled with all the heavy, overwhelming existential thoughts that every adult is grappling with. But you have less support. Like adults can go to a job for a Greenpeace or something, you guys have to go to school and do homework AND worry about saving the planet. That seems like too much. That's a lot <laugh> in that line. “It is painful and crushing,” I think that says it perfectly. Yeah. Um, and then “it's also beautiful and freeing” because you have this incredible creative power.
I do believe your generation is going to start generating the solutions because you're looking for them. I think previous generations were not as… it's just a different situation. I feel like, um, you have such incredible creativity and vision as a generation. And this, this last I get, wait, is it two sentences? Um, “within this confusion and duality, I believe there's unity that is totally Gen Z.” And then the description of it as “a humming connection.” I love that because of course there is a hum to electricity, but also there's like a, this sort of suggests like a symphonic, magical, sacred connection, “built of all those swipes and pauses and smiles and time limits set and ignored.” I love when you mentioned that earlier about ignoring the time limits.
Josslyn: Oh, I do that all the time. I feel like I set a time limit and I'm scrolling and I'm like, ignore time limit. And then I just feel awful about it. But I still do it. And I just, and I think that that was like, I think that that was one of the big conclusions of the piece of that we're all feeling this confusion that social media can feel so isolating and lonely. And when you are experiencing it, it can feel as if you are the only one who feels this confusion and pain because you're holding this little screen with everything in the world and then it, you know, you're, you have access to all of it, and yet you feel very alone in experiencing all of it. So I think one of the conclusions that I arrived with at the end is that in this confusion, we are united as a generation that we all are experiencing this in one way or another. Even if you don't have social media, you're experiencing it because you have access to the whole world online. If you have a computer, if you have phone, if you have safari, you could see anything, you can experience anything. And that it is so confusing and it feels like a burden, but it's also a unity.
Elizabeth: And a beautiful search. Beautiful. I love that you said beautiful. It's also beautiful and freeing. Yeah. Because you can find anything about anything. Like if you're any kind of question, I think sometimes like, oh my God, what did I do before I could Google everything every five minutes?, <laugh>, I just didn't know things. I think I was just like, oh, it's a mystery. I don't know. Whereas now you can just be a detective of your life, which is so cool. <laugh>. And then I love that very, at the very end still, “I long to see the stars. This is who I am, this is who we are.” That brings it back to the beginning, which is like really what we're looking for, what everybody's looking for, whether or not they can articulate it or are conscious of it, is we're all looking for light, which is a metaphor for meaning, connection, authenticity.
And I would say really the experience of being truly alive. that's what we're all looking for. And that's, that's what connects us. And the fact that you have that awareness, that is how you as a writer and a storyteller are going to be a leader in this conversation. And I think you, like many in your generation, are going to help bring sacredness and consciousness more and more into social media because that's actually what everybody wants. Whether most people would not say sacred, but you know, most, it's actually what we, what everybody is yearning for.
Josslyn: Yes. I think you put that so beautifully. Like the search to feel alive I think is just always true no matter what. Yeah. No matter what is, no matter what age you are or where you live or what you're doing, that search, I think is, and it does, it feels warped through social media. Yeah. And it feels warped through global events. And I don't know, I think every generation has had their own battle of feeling what you said, the search to feel alive and to feel authentic and to feel seen. And I think that that is something beyond Gen Z that all generations can relate to. And I, what I think I'm trying to articulate here is that social media is our battle, our search to feel alive, but that search to feel authentic is for everyone.
Elizabeth: Yeah. You're on the leading edge of this, and so you guys have to wrestle it the most. And that, yeah. It's just what is happening at this time. And every generation has to wrestle the demons of that time and it shapes them and it's all perfect. No more shame for anybody, right? We're gonna say, let's no shame. Love it. Except everyone where they are as they are because it just, it is what it is. Oh my God. We can keep talking about this, but I do also wanna ask you, this is always the big question. What advice would you give to other young writers who are writing and they get, like, they start a piece or in, they're in the middle of the piece and they just get stuck and they're like, oh my God, how did I get here? And what am I saying? How do you get unstuck? How do you deal with, and this process, with this piece, you revised it several times. So I imagine that during the revising process, there were moments when you were like stumped. How do you deal with that?
Josslyn: Yeah, I think, and this took me a while, I'm still very young, so I am sure there are many other revelations that I'll come to in terms of writing, in regard to writing. But I think when I was in high school, I realized sort of the power of telling your truth, your feelings. I think for before middle, during middle school, elementary school, even still, I would try to write stuff or try to write stories that I had never experienced, feelings that I didn't, I'd write about adults or fantasy worlds. And I think you can find truth in fantasy. Obviously the main characters all have human traits. But I would write things that were very far from my own life or, you know, I was fascinated by like the Hunger Games and Percy Jackson and kind of those series of, and I tried to write my own versions of those.
And I never went far with them. I mean, I would have the idea, but it, it never would carry through. But I think when I've started with my own truth and what I've experienced my own feelings, that always fuels me so much more. And I'm able to go back to that when I struggle. I think like when I'm working on a piece and I'm thinking, where is this going? I don't know. Then I go kind. I try to go back to that feeling that I start. And everything, for me in terms of writing is always centered around feelings and emotions. <laugh>, it's just like, just my style. And so I, I go, I try to go back to that feeling of what inspired this? What did I feel when I started it? How has that changed? Maybe it's changed, maybe it's evolved, but what is that?
Like, what is that core, um, experience that is rooting, that's rooted this piece? And I think writing about your own life, writing about the things that you've experienced is always the most powerful. And you can always tell in, I think in books when people are writing about things that they've experienced or things they haven't, it's just, it's just natural. It's authentic. And you look for authenticity's, everywhere's. And I think, so that's the way I write is writing about myself, writing about my emotions, or if I'm writing a fictional story, have it be based off of something I actually have experienced. Maybe it's a fictional character, but it's emotions that I know and I recognize. Um, and one time, actually one teacher told me that in regard to writing, if you're struggling with a piece and you feel like, where is this going to find just one line that you love?
And go to that line and ask yourself what is, what is doing it for me with this line? Like, what is, what is so special about this? What is the point that I'm making? What's the emotion that I feel with this line? And then looking at that in regard to the whole piece and like pulling it maybe even if it's just that one line that you love, that you can still make something off of that. And I think I'm always hesitant to cut things. So the way I write on a Google doc at least is I'm like, I don't love the sentence, but I don't wanna cut it because I might need it later. And I pull it and then I like indent down. So then I end up with like a 15 page Google doc when the story is only two pages long because I have all those ideas that I, and on by the end of the story, usually I cut them. But I think that clinging to that is okay, like when you're writing, I think there's a lot of pieces of like, oh, I don't love this section, but just moving it down. And I think I'm, I'm always afraid to cut. I'm like, I don't wanna cut it. But I think it helps in the overall process if you're like, it, what is this serving the piece? Yeah. That was a very answer.
Elizabeth: No, that's great. That's it. That's, I mean, that, that old cliche, right? What is true for you will come out beautifully. I think everyone is afraid because of other teachings that we won't get into where people are told to like, follow a very specific structure and write in a very specific way. And so people feel like, oh, if I just express myself authentically, it's gonna be lame. No, whatever is authentic for you is actually gonna be beautiful. And that happens so often in class where people write something and they're, they were being authentic and they of course assume that it's dumb. And then of course you listen to it and you're like, no, that's amazing. <laugh>, The truth is always beautiful, even if it seems basic. It's not, it's like poetic when you just can speak your truth. So I guess maybe that's the big thing is like giving yourself permission to be authentic and speak to your own. Also similar to that is the fear that if you write about your personal life, it's gonna be quote, boring. 'cause we don't think our lives are that interesting. But they are. Anything you focus on and give attention to becomes beautiful.
Josslyn: Yeah. The most mundane human experience is so beautiful to me. Yeah. And I think, I don't, that's also, I think that's a unique trait. Like some people, I don't know, I think some people have it more than others. I think often people who are interested in writing have an appreciation for just life. I could often just sit and watch people, like people watching is so fascinating. Yeah. But I think all of that inner thought, inner dialogue, the question of who am I is so for everyone. Yeah. It's so beautiful. It's so, I could just, and that's why I love listening to adults talk and listening to like Yeah. People and watching. It's just, it's such a profound sacred experience and I can never get enough of it. I love, I love the story of people <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:57:28 Yeah. Story. I think what it's actually, you're making me think that, and I feel exactly the same. You, I, you and I are so similar, but I feel like what storytelling does is it illuminates the sacred. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you take an ordinary day and if you're not conscious, I mean, we all have moments where you sort of go unconscious and we are like, drive someplace. And I don't even remember driving there. But when you write a story, you slow things down and you, you honor each moment, each feeling, each thought each, each action, each observation. And that makes it sacred. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's almost like, I mean, I think we feel like that after you read a great book. Yeah. Do you feel like more aware after you've, like you're paying attention to things in a whole different way. You're noticing things differently? It's
The same thing. Yeah. When finishing a good book or walking out, I, I've seen so many memes of like walking out of a movie and feeling like the main character. But it, that is, that's what good writing does. It makes you feel aware of your presence and your actions and your being. Yeah. And it makes you feel, it makes the human experience the most mundane things. Just feel, you feel like the main character. Yeah. You feel so aware of
Elizabeth: The heroine of your own story. Yes. <laugh>, that's it. Because we're all the heroine of our own story and the author. That's dual power. But I do think that just the nature of modern life, I don't know what, I love to imagine what it would've been like. And that's why I loved your piece, you know, in the ancient times. Yeah. The towering forest that had never been cut down by man and God, can you imagine how clean the air must have been and how pure you could drink water right out of this stream? But, um, I like to imagine what it was like then. And I like to believe that it was easier to be conscious, but we'll never know. But I do feel it is very hard to stay conscious now. Partly 'cause of, I mean, social media is one of a million things that goes very fast. And when you're going really fast, it's just, um, I think you just sort of, at a certain point you can't process it all. So writing slows it down. Also, the very nature of writing is slow. You cannot write as fast as you think. So it forces your thoughts to slow down.
Yeah. Like if you could write as fast as you think you would write like 5 million books a day, <laugh>. Um, but yeah, you're writing and I was speaking of you're writing specifically. 'cause writing is very deep and thoughtful. I feel like when you're writing, you are picking out these beautiful deep details that have been, your brain had to slow down enough so that you could write them down. And so they're, they allow the reader to slow down as well.
Josslyn: Yeah. I think writing takes patience, which is always very hard for me. 'cause I'm not a very patient person, but I think the best. And my mom always, I have to be honest, my mom always pushes me to edit things further and you know, and I think I'm always like, I write something and I'm like, it's done. <laugh>. I don't know. I'm like, it's a blurt of ideas. And then I'm like, that was it. That was, and then, but I think real, when you take some time, even though it's hard for me to admit, when you take some time and patience and thought like good writing is just thoughtfulness, articulated well, yeah. For me. And, and true. If it's truth, if it's articulated, phrased a little bit nicely and there's thought put in thoughtfulness, put into it, then it's magic, then it's beautiful. I think. I
Elizabeth: I agree. Well, and that we won't get into this right now 'cause this is the whole other podcast conversation, but knowing when to stop editing is an art. Yeah. Because technically you could edit something every day of your life and never be finished with it. And I also think editing is really important because it's refining your thoughts. Like I do think editing is essential, but yet we also have to know when to stop. And that's a whole, we'll talk about that in another podcast. Yeah. <laugh> podcast. But I do think the, the hardest part is getting it out on the page the first time. And then the second hardest part is getting it to a place where you feel like you're ready to let go of it and put it out in the world. And you did it. I'm so happy that you, um, you did work this piece. I know you made several revisions on it, actually, I don't know. How many times do you think you revised this piece to get it to where it is now?
Josslyn: Um, well, I think I initially wrote it and then I took a long break from it. Yes. I wrote it and I liked it. But then I also knew that I needed to think about it for a while and just kind of like, not read it for not think about it for a long time. Um, and then I returned to it and I think I started working on it over the course of a few weeks. And I do a little bit here and there, or just take a section, look at a particular section and be like, I don't know, let me change a little bit of this. I don't know what this is saying really. I kind of thought also, I mean, I hate doing this, but I thought about kind of the structure of the essay. Like, I hate, I hate structure. I mean, I shouldn't say that, but in creative writing.
In creative writing, I'm like, structure doesn't matter. Whatever. This is just my thoughts. But I think, I think to like look back on it a with a little bit cold, no, I don't wanna say cold. Um, a view that is less about the emotions and necessarily feeling and be like, okay, this is what I'm starting with, then I talk about this, then I talk about this. Like, does the flow make sense? 'cause I think when you're so immersed in a piece and when you poured your emotions into it, it's really hard to look at it like from a, to look at it from an outside perspective of whether it makes sense or not. And so I think I needed to take a step back Yeah. To look at it and then make a, and
Elizabeth: That's, I think also really good advice to people. What you just said is that sometimes just stop and come back to it later. Yeah. Because I think we tend to be, um, unreliable narrators of ourselves… and our inner critics are ferocious. And so sometimes I have seen this many times where somebody's writing something and they're like, it's so stupid, I can't even stand it. And then they'll come back to it later and they'll realize there's actually a lot of genius in there and they just need to tweak a few things and then they're happy with it. Yeah. So I think yeah, giving yourself time. If you don't, when you get, I think sometimes we get stuck because we're trying too hard. And usually when, when the best stuff happens is when you kind of like, let go a little bit. Yes. Right. And then it just pours out and you're like, why was this so hard before? And now I've got it. Yeah.
Josslyn: Feel like when I try to write, sometimes I'm, yeah. Sometimes I'll sit down and say to myself, you know, oh, you're gonna write for this hour. And then I go to write and I'm like, I have no idea what to write. There's nothing here. And then I go to bed and right as I'm about to fall asleep, then I idea pops in <laugh>. Nice. Anything. This is what you have to write about. This is, this is, this is the idea. This is the truth. This is all the emotions you've ever felt. This is the solution to life. And then I have to like, pull out my notebook or my laptop and like type a few things. So I do feel like writing comes in moods and it comes in, I don't know. You sometimes have to give yourself a break. Yes. I, I don't understand how my writing brain works. I don't know why the ideas or when the ideas pop up, but sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
Elizabeth Yes. And we can end on that note, that idea of the magic in writing, the part that we can’t explain, which is where ideas come from, where stories come from, where words come from that pop into our heads. And so I think my only advice would be: don't think about it and as much as possible relax and just open up and see what comes through you. Because I do think things come through when they need to come through and you can't force it. The more you try, try, try, try. It's not like a math problem. You can't like think really hard and have the answer. You have to actually stop thinking and then yeah. You have to…
Josslyn: To trust your intuition, which is Yeah. <laugh>, all that. You all the magic you do <laugh>.
Elizabeth: That's it! You have to trust your intuition. That's it in a nutshell. Intuitive writing. Yes. Oh my god, Jocelyn. I could honestly, I mean people who hear this would be like, oh my god, this probably could have gone on for eight hours. It seems like you're, neither of you are losing steam. We're not losing steam. We could go eight hours <laugh>, but we'll stop for the sake of our audience. Um, thank you with all my heart for sharing your words and your wisdom and honestly your, your intuitive wisdom that is so deep and powerful and you are a storytelling leader. And I appreciate you. Thank you.
Josslyn: That means a lot coming from you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me here.
Elizabeth: Yay!
